Remote Control Scoreboards?

[blacktiger]

I worked a girls district semifinal lastnight in a new gym that was equipped with remote control scoreboards. Because they work on remote control, the clock is programmed to run time back on the clock. If the timer stops the clock on the whistle, the clock might run for two or more seconds but will re-wind back to what the clock was on when the timer hit the switch. An example would be 18 secs whistle, 17 secs, 16 secs, rewind to 18 secs. There is nothing the timer can do about this. I know this sounds funny but it happens.
In closing seconds of the game last night the black team is down by 2 inside of 10 seconds and trying to get a shot off. Shot goes up, and both teams go for rebound. Ball goes to the floor when the white team picks it up while layin on the baseline. I blow the whistle and the horn goes off. I look at my partner to make sure the clock was okay. He said the clock was inside 1 second when the whistle sounded. We left the floor with the white team winning by two. A knock on our door came from an official there watching the game and said the coaches and tournament director wanted us on the floor that .2secs remained on the clock. I said that horn went off and the game was over. The tournament director came to the door and said that even though the horn sounded because of the way the scoreboard was programmed the clock rewound to .2secs. My partner and I were not sure as to we should go back to the floor. We did go back and finish the game after explaining the situation to both coaches. Luckily the white team coach who was winning (and eventually won)was willing to go along with our decision. After the game my partner and I both agreed that we were wrong in going back out, but were we did not know what to do about the clock situation. I have a couple questions for all of you.
1) Were we wrong in going back out? I know that most of you will say yes, but consider the goofy scoreboard that was involved. I called our state rules interpreter and he said he thought we were wrong but agreed that the board kind of made it an unusual situation.
2) Has anyone ever dealt with one of these types of boards before? Has anyone ever had a similar experience and how did you handle it?
Our rules interpreter is going to get back with me after he does some research on these types of boards. I will keep you posted on what he tells me.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by blacktiger

1) Were we wrong in going back out? I know that most of you will say yes, but consider the goofy scoreboard that was involved. I called our state rules interpreter and he said he thought we were wrong but agreed that the board kind of made it an unusual situation.

You're correct. Most are going to tell you that you were incorrect to go back on the floor. When you left the visual confines of the gym, the final score was approved and the game was over. You say the winning coach was okay with the decsion. How okay would he have been if he had lost?

2) Has anyone ever dealt with one of these types of boards before? Has anyone ever had a similar experience and how did you handle it?

No, and I hope that I never do.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Hawks Coach]

As I understand how you describe events, you should never have left the floor. The 1 second delay provision applies to the delay in your blowing the whistle and the timer reacting. If there is under one second remaining and the timer reacts quickly enough to stop the clock, you play out the game with the .2 seconds left. And all clocks stop within microseconds of a timer punching the button, flipping the switch, etc.

As you explain the clock functioning in this gym, the rewind two .2 seconds reflected where the clock was when the timer stopped it. In any other gym the clock would have read .2 seconds as soon as the timer stopped it. After the automatic reset, this clock also read .2 seconds, the time when the timer stopped the clock. Those .2 seconds should be played. Given that you knew the characteristics of the clock, I think you should have remained on the floor until verifying that the clock was not stopped by the timer prior to the horn. I think that once you left, it is probably a different story. But because of this wierd clock, you really left before the game should have ended, or would have ended with the kind of timing rules envisioned by NFHS.

Oh, and you should have returned with a shotgun or other weapon of choice and destroyed that clock so that none of your fellow officials ever deal with anything like that. What a ridiculous design feature.

[ripian]

0.2 seconds (under NCAA rules) is not enough time for a shot or tap, you could of used that as a reason not to go back out , and yes you were wrong to go back out.

[co2ice]

Agree with Hawks Coach. If you knew the way the clock was operating, you should have huddled with your partner and then gone to the table. This would have given enough time for the clock to reset to .2 seconds and then you would have finished play. The shot gun may not be a good idea in school however a sledge hammer would have been just as effective and even theapeutic. I hope I never see one like this!

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by ripian
0.2 seconds (under NCAA rules) is not enough time for a shot or tap, you could of used that as a reason not to go back out , and yes you were wrong to go back out.

First, I thought that .2 was no shot but tap is ok.

Second, if he was wrong to go back out, then he doesn't need an excuse. NCAA rules regarding catch and shoot are not the reason he was wrong to go back out and should not be used as an excuse. The real reason should be provided.

[Mark Dexter]

To all of you who say that the officials can't come back, I pose this question.

Heated game, with score A-75,B-74 with seconds left. Whistle blows for OOB violation (off of A), immediately followed by horn, so the crew heads for the locker room.

Timer comes chasing after you saying that there is still 0.5 seconds displayed on the clock, the horn was just for substitutes.

In this situation, is the game over or not?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ripian
0.2 seconds (under NCAA rules) is not enough time for a shot or tap,

Say what?

[blacktiger]

Maybe I needed to add a little bit of clarification. The horn sounded and then the clock rewound itself. We did not know that the clock rewound itself. My partner determined that there was no lag time involved in the play.

I talked to my state rules interpreter who did some research with the state association on these scoreboards. No one has ever heard of these kinds of boards. The only suggestion he had was to clarify with the coaches before the game of what the board is capable of doing. I worked a boys semifinal last night and we notified both coaches of the problem.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Under NFHS rules there is "lag" time. When you sounded your whistle and then the game clock horn sounded, the period had ended, and the game was over. Under NCAA rules there is no "lag" time and these remote control scoreboards seem to be designed for NCAA rules. You should not have left the court immediately but that is a moot point because the game was over no matter what.

[Hawks Coach]

Mark,
My understanding of the lag time rule is it allows the timer 1 second to get a clock stopped after a whistle. It protects competent timers from constantly having their work questioned. This clock would keep going after the timer tried to stop it, then automatically recover to where it was when the timer stopped it. That latter condition is what is covered by lag time. A clock that has a delayed stoppage would also be covered if it did not rewind to the exact point that the timer stopped it. For example, a clock that takes .2 seconds to stop would fall under lag time if the elapsed time between whistle and clock stoppage did not exceed the 1 second.

This case is different. It appears that the clock runs for quite a while after stoppage (for some unexplained reason) then recovers to the point of stoppage. That point of stoppage should be played at all times with this type of clock, including end of game.

I also do not agree that this clock is set for NCAA rules. There is no "automatic" clock reset in NCAA. In NCAA you have to check the tape and manually reset to the point that the clock should have stopped. The clock doesn't have independent knowledge of these facts so that it can reset itself, as this clock does.

Blacktiger, I am not meaning to criticize, rather to give an opinion on this with the benefit of hindsight and no pressure to make the right call (and clearly not everyone agrees with my interp!). You made a call that is clearly defensible within the rules in a high pressure situation. You asked the relevant questions based on your knowledge and experience. And the next time, you were even more prepared. Good job.

[Bart Tyson]

I have to disagree with most of you. I think the officials are obligated to go finish the game. Lag time only has to do with the response time of the timer. This has nothing to do with lag time.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
I have to disagree with most of you. I think the officials are obligated to go finish the game. Lag time only has to do with the response time of the timer. This has nothing to do with lag time.

The original poster referred to lag time, he was referring to his blowing the whistle just before the horn sounded. His partner said there was less than a second on the clock when the whistle blew, so there is no requirement to put time on the clock.

When the horn sounds, the game is over unless the referee has definite knowledge that time should be added to the clock. There is no rule that says if a clock runs on the concept of stupidity, the clock can add time back to itself

When the officials left the visual confines of the arena, the final score was official and the game was over.

Now, what rules are you basing your stand on?

[Mark Dexter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

The original poster referred to lag time, he was referring to his blowing the whistle just before the horn sounded. His partner said there was less than a second on the clock when the whistle blew, so there is no requirement to put time on the clock.

This seems like a stretch to me. It seems more like reverse-lag time than the actual rule. The rule says that if the clock doesn't stop - that's okay. Your interpretation says that if the clock does stop, end the game. Ex:
1.0 seconds - whistle
0.5 seconds - clock stops
Your decision - end game because of lag time?

In another case - late in a tight game, scorer's horn accidentally sounds, officials blow whistle, timer stops clock showing 0:00, and officials leave floor. Timer then comes into locker room saying his display panel shows 0:00.9, and the game horn hasn't sounded. In this situation, it seems like time has expired, but it hasn't.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Lets look at casebook plays from both the NFHS and NCAA for this play.

NFHS Play 5.10.1B, Comment: "Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to make allowance for normal reaction time of the time which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction' time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock." The last sentence that I have quoted refers to the casebook play itself. In this play the official sees the amount of time on the clock as he/she sounds his/her whistle and and signals the clock to stop. The clock showed three seconds when the official's whistle sounded and the timer did not stop the clock and the period expired. The Ruling has the referee directing the Timer to put three seconds on the clock because he had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

NFHS Play 5.10.1D, specifically Situations (a) and (b) further reinforces the Comment in the previous play. In this play the official see how much time is in on the clock when he/she signaled the clock to be stopped. In Situation (a) the clock after stopping showed the same amount of time that the official saw when he/she signaled the clock to be stopped, and in Situation (b) the clock showed one second less then when the official signaled the clock to be stopped. In (a) and (b) the time on the clock is considered correct and there was no timing error. In Situations (c) and (d) the clock showed more two or more seconds elapsing after the official's signal to stop the clock. Situations (c) and (d) are timing errors and the referee will direct the timer to reset the clock to the time showing at the time on the clock when the stop clock signal was given.

Therefore, under the NFHS Rules the game at the beginning of the thread ended with the sounding of the timer's signal signalling the expiration of playing time. Just because technology enabled the clock to rewind itself has no bearing on whether time is to be put back on the clock.

NCAA R-5S-12-A10, A.R. 25: This play is is exactly like the NFHS play with the only difference being that Situations (b) is also considered a timing error and is treated the same way as Situations (c) and (d).

If this game had been played under NCAA rules the game would not be over. The Team B would get a thrown in with 0.2 seconds on the clock. Team B can only score a field goal on a tip.