Touch call yesterday. I was working a boys and girls high school tournament (my partner and I were doing the girls side) and had a very close game. 3 point difference with 4.8 seconds to play and B1 is fouled with her team in the double bonus situation. (Her team is down by three.) I was trail and doing the silent (hand flick) count on the FT. Her first FT was good although she took about 8 seconds to release the ball on her try. It's now a 2 point game. She receives the ball for her second try and this time takes even longer to shoot. After about 11.5 seconds I finally called a 10 second violation. Her coach came unglued and stood up and started accusing me (VERY LOUDLY) of being connected with the other team. (I am not.) My partner (on lead, bench side) came over and didn't hesitate to T the coach. The coach then loudly accused my partner of the same thing and he was given a second T and ejected from the gym. It was really too bad. The other team shot the FTs for the Ts (missed all four!!) and we gave the ball to A and they just ran the clock out.

I really felt bad for the girls on B, because after the 10 second violation they still might have been able to steal the ball when A was inbounding in B's fontcourt and possibly tie the game. But after their coach's display the girls were so visibly demoralized they just kinda gave up.

Amazing thing was that the girl I called the 10 second violation on met me in the parking lot after the game and apologized for her coach!!

Any thoughts?

If you had been counting consistently throughout the game (none of the 7 . . . 8 . . . 8 1/2 . . . 9 . . . 9 1/4, etc. stuff) and calling other violations of the ten second rule, then you were in the right and have nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, if other 10 second violations hadn't been called, you should have ignored this one as well.

We counted everything, but in this particular game there were no other 10 second violations.

This could be the dumbest rule in the book. Needs to be deleted.
It very rarely happens and when it does it causes more grief for the officials than any other rule.
My count is the slowest you have ever seen!

Speaking of "slow" I got home and timed myself with my watch as I made the 10-count just as I had done it in the game. My watch said 13 seconds. (Guess I was counting a bit slow without knowing it.)

Frankly you're right...it COULD be the dumbest rule...but it's still a rule.

Regardless of the Rule....
 

This "coach" was TOTALLY wrong in his reaction to the call.

I had a similar situation this year in a Freshman Boys game. I made the call (Intentional Foul: Player made NO attempt for the ball) and the coach went on a verbal tirade. Making accusations of "Cheating" and so on... I calmly attempted to explain what was observed and he continued his ranting and raving..... "T"

I go to administer the FTs and the coach starts again... Partner "Whacks" him. I filed the report for his ejection.
His AD contacted me and asked for additional info on the situation. He informed me that this incident "opened his eyes" to the unprofessionalism of his Frosh Coach. He checked the score book and found that the coach had been "T'd" numerous other times during the season, but none were double occurances (resulting in ejection).

I was suprized that the AD was not aware how pathetic this coach is. He thanked me for the input and assured me that This coach would not have another coaching contract. He said that he viewed the gym as another classroom and he would not tolerate his "teachers" (Coaches) acting that way.

I, initially, felt sad that this coach would not be around, but then realized it was all HIS choices that led to the final consequence.

Keep your head up! Call as you see them.

What time limit would you suggest the rule be changed to? There has to be a limit. Otherwise, a player could stand in the semi-circle forever and there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

Maybe this could be a Delay of Game type situation with the first violation in a game being a warning, and the second being a technical. It happens so rarely that kids may not even know the rule, and so giving a warning if necessary seems reasonable.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Maybe this could be a Delay of Game type situation with the first violation in a game being a warning, and the second being a technical. It happens so rarely that kids may not even know the rule, and so giving a warning if necessary seems reasonable.

There's no question about the fact that many kids are not aware of this rule. But it's the coach's job to make sure they DO know the time limits for various activities on the floor. I'm sure the 10 second shooting limit for FTs was intended as a means of insuring against a delay of game.

After the situation took place as I described it at the beginning of this thread, the coach from the losing team addressed the issue with another varsity official who was working the tournament and complained that his team should have received a warning. The official calmly explained that we're not required to give warnings before making a call of this sort.

In retrospect I wondered myself if a warning was appropriate given the obscurity of the call, but when I thought about it, couldn't that be construed as showing partiality for the shooting team? (Remember, when the coach blew up he accused me and my partner of favoritism.) Had I stepped toward the shooter after the first try and said, "Hey, you took a long time to release the ball on that first shot, remember you only have 10 seconds." couldn't the OTHER coach have accused me of favoritism and been correct???

You probably wont like my post....

I am going to ask the tough question,
Is this something that you went looking for?

A lot of officials dont do a visible count. Why? because enforcing this rule is looking for trouble and I think you found it. I am not sure that I have ever seen it called. Most of the time officials will do a mental count. If a shot takes too long they will either say something or a coach will ask if it is taking too long. They will speed it up. Although the girl made a mistake by not getting the FT off. She is down 2 and can pull team within one. Maybe some pressure?

I dont know if I would have called this...

You're right Kelvin. I don't like the post.
How can you not do the count? It is a part of the rules and a part of the mechanics of the game. To do otherwise makes a travesty of all the rules. We would have refs taking their own spin on the rules. You have to enforce the rules, especially those that deal with conducting the game in an orderly fashion.
Coaches are wan to find any loophole in the rules they can to get an advantage, real or otherwise. Enforcing this rule is not looking for trouble. It's doing your job. Every official I have reffed with does the visible count, albeit a bit subdued so as to not disconcert the free thrower. We cannot be concerned so much that a call is going to make a difference that we lose sight of our real purpose for being there. To do otherwise shows favoritism.

10 seconds is 10 seconds
 

It was a proper call, it is the Coach's responsibility to inform his players of the rules. His reaction was to "cover his own ignorance to this responsibility." It is YOUR responsibility (and the coach's, but we know better) to know and enforce the rules consistently, to do anything less is unprofessional.

The only count that is not a visual is the 3-second lane violation. Any questions?

Paul: I suggest you re-read your original post. This coach was looking for an alibi for his loss.

While rules are rules. Sometimes we need to consider the spirit of the rule. I wasn't there, but could you have pretended something was on the floor to get close enough to the player and let her know she was close to the 10 sec count and to get it off faster on the second shot?

Yes, rules are rules....and kevin i for one like your post

One of our biggest jobs in my mind is to let the players determine the outcome of the game. With 4.8 seconds left in the game, any official who makes a 10 second free-throw violation call is in my mind doesn't know what there doing. The rules of basketball are a guide, they arn't black and white.

Looking back, why did you wait 11.5 seconds to call the violation,why not at 10 when the rule was first broken? I know your going to give the benefit to the shooter right? Well take it a step further, LET THEM ATTEMPT THE SHOT.!

The situation you describe is what make officiating so hard, not what you did but what's going to happen in the future. Mark my words, every time that coach sees another official he will be wanting the 10 second free throw violation called. You've not only set yourself up with the coach you've also set up all your fellow officials.

I personally have only called 1 of these violations. It occured when a shooter who had received the ball for the free throw, placed the ball on the free throw line and ran back to their bench. Even then, i gave the shooter at least 15 seconds to put up a shot. By the way it was a forty point ball game and the winning team was at the line.

How you dealt with the coach was justified, his actions shouldn't be aloud to displayed, however i again think that your first action of calling the unnecessary violation lead to the bigger problem.

The reason i sound so upset is that we have an official in our association that sounds like yourself. He calls an indirect 'T' every time a player runs out of bounds and by out of bounds i mean an inch or two. It just stupid!! Why look for things to call, are there too few?!

Anyone can know the rules, but can you understand why the rules have been writen the way they are. Officials must understand the spirit and intent of the rules and not just the words.

keep smiling
SH

I see a violation 9-7, leaving the free throw semi-circle. How could you have gooten to 15?

I agree with the idea that this should have been a no-call. At that point in a tightly contested game, it is not the time to pull out the 1st 10 second count that probably either team has had all year. I see no advantage gained here by the offending (unlike ignoring a backcourt 10 sec or a 3 sec count). I would expect a much more egregious violation to make this call here.

On the other hand, in the 1st quarter, make the call without warning. If it continues, make the call all game, including in this situation.

Those in glass houses should not cast rocks. If a player leaves the "key", "lane", "semi-circle", whatever you want you call it, it is an automatic lane violation, why would you count to 15?

Rules are rules, and while we can give them some leeway, you shouldn't chastise another official for making a call within the rules. I would have given the player a heads up between tosses to speed it up, this would be good preventive officiating, but pressure or not, if they are taking that long you have to call it. By not doing so you penalize the other team.

I agree with the call
 

<html>First and foremost, it's a <b>rule</b> in the rulebook and should be called. Also, what would have the situation have been if the coach on the other side started counting '9....10....<b>11...12!!!</b>' Then you would have really been in a bind. I agree with the call - it took some guts to call it knowing what the results would be - but I'd back that call as a partner.</html>

It is ok to discuss and have opposing opinions about specific plays on this forum. Sometimes the words we choose are not the best, but were officials, we can take it. If i have a coach start counting, i will not call a violation.

I was not there so I cannot say if I would have called it or not. But it is a tough call to make in a tight game. Sort of like calling the first 3 in the key of the game with only seconds remaining. Preventative officating would be best (even if you think it may look like favoritism). I try has hard as possible to let the players decide the game not the officals. As for a coach counting on the sidelines, I would never make the call then. If after he complained I would say that all his counting confused me and I lost my count.

In my mind preventive officiating is the way to go. I would have conveyed my thoughts to the shooter and at the same time reminded the others to not move across the lanes before the shot was released -in that way I would be coaching both squads and not favoring one. This should be done in a very low key manner.

I disagree with warning the shooter. On what basis? She took 8 seconds on the 1st free throw? With the game on the line, the last thing you should be doing is talking to the shooter about their process at the line. I would actually see that as favoring the other team by putting a distracting thought in the shooter's head that detracts from her focus on this very important free throw. Now she is thinking about your count instead of her shot. She may normally take 8 seconds and intend on doing so again, and that would not be a violation.

I also think you have to have a really egregious violation to dream of calling this with 4.8 seconds left, but I recognize that the rules support making the call and it is within your purview to do so if you find it necessary. i would prefer a little more restraint in this sitch.

Need to correct my quick fingered rule reference - the reference is 9-1-7, not 9-7. So sorry :)

Hawks Coach- We must do things a lot different up here but in 40 years I have only seen that called once and the official who was being evaluated at the time was really raked over the coals for calling it. I never forgot that day and I have always found a way to prevent such things without bringing attention to myself and have never been accused of favoring or coaching a team on those occassions. I agree with the philosophy that the rules are just a guide and I believe that most of the top officials in the States handle these situations in a similar manner.I have worked with your top D1 officials on occassion and I know they would never get involved in a situation like that- they would prevent it in a manner similar to what I have suggested.That's one of the reasons they reached that level.

I've only heard it being called once. couple years ago. Kansas U. player.

Peter

I am all for a liberal calling of this "violation". I just can't see you warning a player based on an 8 second count, which is how this transpired (the first FT wasn't a violation). As I read it, you suggested making a warning for being close to a delay after the first FT, which I can't support because you have no reason to warn a player who is within the legal time limit. That could be how they always shoot free throws. You will now have them thinking that maybe they are taking too long, that their 8 seconds was actually 12 and they will get a violation if they do the same thing on the next FT. Then they rush their rhythm and lose their concentration, all based on a warning without cause.

I would agree that I have never seen this called, and i have seen some people take a long time. But I do see many refs counting, and I have always assumed that if they are counting, they must intend to call a violation if it occurs. I guess I can see a warning rather than a call early in the game, if that's the way the associations expect it to be done. I just think that you can call this kind of thing early, can ignore it late.

To count or not to count...that is the question!!

If you are counting in the begining of the game, you better be counting with 4.8 seconds left in the game(Consistency). I wonder why no one has mentioned the "Big Brother" factor. Most games I officiate, have at least 1 video camera recording the game. I would never want to get myself caught on tape not counting when I should be counting. I count for backcourt even if the team will be in the frontcourt in 3 seconds.

"Officials should not affect the outcome of the game." I don't think Paul affected the outcome of the game. The player put him in a position where he had to make this particular call...albit not a popular one. Players know they have a limit on how long they can take to shoot a free throw (just like they know they can't camp in the lane for more than 3 seconds). I also think Paul did a wonderful job of giving the player as much leeway as possible.

Don't you mean hits backboard/rim? (assuming HS ball)

I was referring to NCAA Men's rules -sorry