I am a 4th year official and had a situation where I was the lead and my 20 year plus veteran official was on the trail. It was late in the 4th qtr with Team B holding a slim lead. A1 was inbounding the ball on the baseline and passed it to A2 on the baseline who attempted a short jump shot with B2 standing with his hands straight up and the only contact made if any was initiated by A2. The trail official calls a foul on B2 and it was clearly not a foul directly in front of me. The player B2 looks at me and gives me the what did I do wrong look and I wanted tell him nothing but of course you never sell out on your partner. If I had made that out of area call he would have been upset! The play never affected the outcome of Team B winning the game. I never said anything to the other official after the game but it bugged me the rest of the evening. How does a official handle issues like this in an association known as the "Good Old Boys"?

Nicely ask him after the game what he saw. Maybe there was something he picked up that you didn't since he was very experienced. If he has an answer you totally don't agree with just nod and say "I see why you called it" and move on, and disagree to yourself.

Good advice. "Hey partner, what did you see WAY across the gym right in front of me that I missed 'cause I sure didn't see ANYTHING" is probably not the best approach in a situation like yours. It is quite possible that your more experienced partner did indeed have a call that you weren't aware of (maybe?). But certainly, if you approach the matter straightforwardly in the genuine interest of learning and improving (as well as 'assuming' your partner "made the right call") you'll be better off. If you discover that your partner might have "missed" the call, then you'll be able to quietly learn a valuable lesson - either way, why piss off the "good ole boy" if you don't have to; no good will come of that.

Good luck! Let us know what happens.

Let me start by saying I have only been doing this for 3 years and still have alot to learn.

I always read about the 10+ year vet who is doing this or that, I hear from vets in my association about how they can do this or that because they are vets and they understand and know how the flow of the game/play will go.
So here's my stirring of the pot. What's the deal with some of these vets? They preach professionalism and a professional appearance yet stand before us with the furniture disease (chest has fallen into their drawers). I go and watch some of their games and they appear to be quite lazy and sloppy.

So do I have complacency to look forward to? We are always told to work for the next level yet the ones preaching this seem to have reached their plateau.

And so ends the ranting of an angry Dudly. Thanks for listening.

Good advice above.

This happened to me twice in my first year. First time I asked my partner what he saw and all he said was "A foul...learn to call it." I so much wanted to say something equally tacky but I held my tongue. The second time, when I brought up the situation after the game my partner said "Don't ask me what I saw...you had perfect position, it was right in front of you and you passed on the call. I had no business blowing my whistle and I am sorry I made you look bad." He then said it looked like B pushed with the down hand while trying to block the shot up high and asked if I noticed that hand. I said yes and he added "Thanks, now I really feel bad."

Hopefully your partner will not be like my first.

Every time there's a discussion about calling out of area, I am reminded of a comment made by former NBA coach Jack Ramsey. He was coaching the Trailblazers in the late 70s when he yelled at an official about not making a call. The official replied that it "wasn't his call". Ramsey said, "You're an official. If it isn't your call, whose is it - the popcorn guy?"

Dudly,

Veterans are just as different as the inexperienced officials. Not everyone has the same commitment or talent because they officiating for a certain period of time.

Peace

JRut,
Just felt like venting. I despise the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality.

I had an instance liekt this and at half-time I said, "Hey I am glad you came and got that call, what did you see from your side?" I believe that is a good place to start the discussion.
You give them instant gratification and then give them a chance to make them believe they are teaching you. People are more likely to divulge info. if they believe they are "teaching" or "helping" you. Meanwhile you will gain respect from that official and have more of a free reign to communicate how you wish.
AAR

I do too. Just consider the source. If a veteran that has can never get past a minimal level in the playoffs is telling you what to do (over several years), then stop listening to them. You have to consider who is telling you what to do. Some people should be listened to a lot. There are many that no one should listen to. When you see a guy work you can draw your own conclusion. ;)

Peace

The next trip down the floor get a call right in front of him, which is equally as bad, for the sake of crew consistency.:D

Out of Area Calls
 

I just want to thank everyone for their prompt responses to my subject on out of area calls. This is a very good active officials forum.

Right in front of me
 

I'm L partner is back by table as T. Boys 8th grade travel league.
B1 "falls" to floor and recovers a loose ball under A's basket [in lane opposite side of table]. B1 Is on floor on knees when he gains control of loose ball. As rest of players turn and head down floor to play defense, B1 begins his dribble while still on his knees. Then stands up to start down floor. My partner puts air in his whistle and calls traveling; and asks for ball to in-bound it table-side at FT line extended.

It was right in front of me [no more than 6-feet or so], IMO a good play on B1's part, from my view B1 definately started dribble B4 he got up off his knees.

What to do, I was going to let my partner live and die by the call. I don't want to "over-rule" him. We did talk about it at half-time. But I don't think the conversation was going anywhere and just let it go.

Questions to ask:
Why is he even looking there?
Did you see the entire play? Did you see B1 start his dribble B4 standing?
Why inbound at sideline by FT line extended, why not at baseline nearest to violation?
Any others?

Re: Right in front of me
 

That situation, in that type of game, I'm not going to be that diplomatic when I talk to them. It will be more like, " Make another AWFUL call right in front of me and you will be singing sorprano for a week." :D

I like that
 

Thanks, I'll remember that one.

Catch More Flies With Honey .......
 

Tuesday night GJV. Press is on I am at Division line ball pinballing all over place. Ball pops out A1 & B1 pop out . A1 drives B1 steps in. I am at two feet from endline and four feet from layup. Crash-I had no call i couldn't see that either player got there first so my call was basically a no call. From out in the neverlands we have a Tweet. i look towards the sound . Its my partner in front of the bench of the team furthest from the action. He makes the Player Control call. I look at partner-gym goes dead silent. I say to him at next dead ball " you can't make that call " He flips out on me. "He has been reffing rec ball for years" (I can tell . it shows) . People fall down he is gonna make that call everytime . So now this thread shows up a little too late to help but now I have tools for next time. Varsity ref ( Di, JUCO) shows up right before halftime. Partner makes call from baseline-play is at division line -I am at division line . Varsity ref asked him about the call . he goes off in the locker room at Varsity ref. I get my own personal halftime show. At one point i thought I was going to have to break up a physical fight.

I know on this board there are Refs who do a good job at rec ball. In our area rec/high school refs are NOT one and the same. I can go to subvarsity, without knowing the refs and point out the ones who have done rec ball. The End

Re: Catch More Flies With Honey .......
 

Obviously I didn't see the play, but if you have a big crash you probably need a whistle. Those are called game savers. If they got there at the exact same time it would depend on LGP ect. Read the board to see how to call the block/charge correctly.

As far as addressing "vet" officials who are calling in your primary, I always learned keep your mouth shut and your ears open. When being evaluated they will get there comments and as far as moving up get yourself on tape so you can see what you can do better. If someone makes the wrong call, i.e, traveling when a player is dribbling, you just have to smile and go on.

One way you can talk to a player who wants to know why they got a foul that your partner called you can just respond with I'm not sure what my partner saw, you will have to ask him/her.

Interesting responses. I'm just curious, however, if there is a no call by the lead official in the play described at the start of this message (jump shot on the baseline) and the trail official calls a foul when near the half court on the weak side (I'm making this assumption), is it ever appropriate for the lead official in this case to immediately call a "pow wow" and attempt to talk the trail official out of making the call? Or to go even further, can the lead official every overrule this call in this situation (assuming the trail sticks to his guns)?

What if there are 3 refs working the game? Can the 3rd ref act as a "referee" in this situation?

1) No

2) No

3) No

First of all you cannot "overrule" another official on a call.

You can have a brief conversation with a partner if you both have the same thing or there is an issue with a certain aspect of a call. Like whether the basket counts or they might be a violation that would eliminate a foul or violation. That is very rare though.

What should happen is you should discuss this in pregame and get the point across about calling your area and deal with some situations that might suggest when that happens or when it does not. In 3 person there are situations when an official can call outside of their area. To know those situations usually you have to have some knowledge of the system and to know what is acceptable. For example there are times when the Trail is going to make certain calls in the Leads area and the lead is probably not watching the ball. The trail almost always has the ball to come extent because they have the 5 second count (NF and Men's college). This is why the pregame meeting is so important. You do not want to be surprised on the court. Then if there is a situation, discuss it at halftime or even a quarter break. If a partner called something in my area I just make the comment, "what did you see at....?” I usually will try to remember the time on the clock when the call was made to bolster my question. It is possible that they had a better angle and you can at least find out or drive home the point of calling in your area and trusting your partner.

Peace

This is exactly what our top rated official in our over 100 members officials organization said to me in my first year of officiating. I always thought it should be "Practice what you preach"

Dhodges007
 

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on a "game saver"? I believe I have the general concept but would like to hear some feedback on it. thanks Mike