Adv/Disadv

[Starman311]

I was at a game recently where an offensive player had good block-out position near the basket and end line on his defensive player who is "leaning" on him (in the key). A shot was in the air near the basket. End line official is within 10 feet of both players and appears to be looking toward this area. Outside official is also looking toward this same area from the other side of the court at approx mid court area. (I have several photos showing a sequence of this situation.)

After the shot hits the rim, the defensive player described above shoves the offensive player such that the offensive player is almost pushed out of bounds (photo shows him falling toward out of bounds line with defensive player's arm on his lower back). The ball is in the air approx above the rim at this point.

The ball continues its rebound off the rim to approx. 5-6 feet into the key where it is rebounded by a different offensive player. Even if the first offensive player was not shoved from his position, he probably could not have got that rebound since it came off the rim so far. The first offensive player mentioned above is visibly standing out of bounds in front of the endline official, after regaining his momentum from an obvious push by the defensive player. Neither official called a foul on this situation.

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

What if the offensive player was hurt in this situation due to the shove by the defensive player? Would that have made any difference in the call/no call decision?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Starman311
I was at a game recently where an offensive player had good block-out position near the basket and end line on his defensive player who is "leaning" on him (in the key). A shot was in the air near the basket. End line official is within 10 feet of both players and appears to be looking toward this area. Outside official is also looking toward this same area from the other side of the court at approx mid court area. (I have several photos showing a sequence of this situation.)

After the shot hits the rim, the defensive player described above shoves the offensive player such that the offensive player is almost pushed out of bounds (photo shows him falling toward out of bounds line with defensive player's arm on his lower back). The ball is in the air approx above the rim at this point.

The ball continues its rebound off the rim to approx. 5-6 feet into the key where it is rebounded by a different offensive player. Even if the first offensive player was not shoved from his position, he probably could not have got that rebound since it came off the rim so far. The first offensive player mentioned above is visibly standing out of bounds in front of the endline official, after regaining his momentum from an obvious push by the defensive player. Neither official called a foul on this situation.

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

What if the offensive player was hurt in this situation due to the shove by the defensive player? Would that have made any difference in the call/no call decision?

Based upon the your description I would have called a pushing foul on the defensive player. Whether or not the offensive player might or might not have gotten the rebound is of no consequence in this play. This is an obvious foul by the defensive player. Not calling the foul just promotes rough play.

MTD, Sr.

[bradfordwilkins]

On the other hand Mark, its entirely possible (especially if they're running a 2-man crew) that the push was missed and only saw the after-effect, at which point calling a foul would be out of line as that conclussion could've been reached any number of ways, including possibly a defender pulling the chair out from an aggressive offensive box out, etc.

If you don't see it, don't call it is my philosphy.

[Camron Rust]

Depends on game and how hard the push really was. If the push really wasn't that much or was aided by a little acting...probably a no call. If the ball had come to that defender...foul. Too aggressive contact...a foul.

[Ref in PA]

I have been known to call the foul in the situation described above and also have been known to let it go. It depends on what I had for breakfast that day.

I have withheld the whistle to see the complete play and depending on what happens and who gets the ball, then decided if to call the foul or not. It also depends on the roughness of the game to that point. If it has been a rough game, I would tend to use the whistle early rather than see a play entirely develop.

I have also been known to miss calls in my primary area from time to time because of angles and bodies (although I try to do my best).

So, the short answer is: I would have to be reffing the game up to that point and see the play before I would tell you how I would call the play.

[eventnyc]

Originally posted by Starman311


After the shot hits the rim, the defensive player described above shoves the offensive player such that the offensive player is almost pushed out of bounds (photo shows him falling toward out of bounds line with defensive player's arm on his lower back). The ball is in the air approx above the rim at this point.

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

What if the offensive player was hurt in this situation due to the shove by the defensive player? Would that have made any difference in the call/no call decision?

I have a foul on this! The wording used above (shove) coupled with the result (displacement of offensive player - an obvious advantage BTW) leaves me no choice. If I wait until he's hurt, what message does that send the players?

[johnnyrao]

I can't say for sure in this situation without actually being there. I agree with everyone on this one because based on the situation you can go a number of different ways.

However, I have made this a point of emphasis for my own game and in pre-game. I have seen in my area that high school players (girls and boys) displace with such regularity that it seems to me that they are coached to do it. Not sure if it comes from their coaches or in camps they attend but I see it as such a trend that it can't just be coincidental (IMO). Anybody else see the same thing?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Starman311
I was at a game recently where an offensive player had good block-out position near the basket and end line on his defensive player who is "leaning" on him (in the key). A shot was in the air near the basket. End line official is within 10 feet of both players and appears to be looking toward this area. Outside official is also looking toward this same area from the other side of the court at approx mid court area. (I have several photos showing a sequence of this situation.)

After the shot hits the rim, the defensive player described above shoves the offensive player such that the offensive player is almost pushed out of bounds (photo shows him falling toward out of bounds line with defensive player's arm on his lower back). The ball is in the air approx above the rim at this point.

The ball continues its rebound off the rim to approx. 5-6 feet into the key where it is rebounded by a different offensive player. Even if the first offensive player was not shoved from his position, he probably could not have got that rebound since it came off the rim so far. The first offensive player mentioned above is visibly standing out of bounds in front of the endline official, after regaining his momentum from an obvious push by the defensive player. Neither official called a foul on this situation.

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

What if the offensive player was hurt in this situation due to the shove by the defensive player? Would that have made any difference in the call/no call decision?

As described shot on the way the lead should be looking in this area foul should have been called. It's possible Lead could have been straight lined and did not see this obvious foul. I've had about 15 or 20 calls like this this season. However, Lead may have passed on this (I wouldn't have) because the "right team got the rebound.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by Starman311

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

Having seen Starman at the game, they were probably looking for Karen Allen and missed the foul.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Starman311
I was at a game recently where an offensive player had good block-out position near the basket and end line on his defensive player who is "leaning" on him (in the key). A shot was in the air near the basket. End line official is within 10 feet of both players and appears to be looking toward this area. Outside official is also looking toward this same area from the other side of the court at approx mid court area. (I have several photos showing a sequence of this situation.)

After the shot hits the rim, the defensive player described above shoves the offensive player such that the offensive player is almost pushed out of bounds (photo shows him falling toward out of bounds line with defensive player's arm on his lower back). The ball is in the air approx above the rim at this point.

The ball continues its rebound off the rim to approx. 5-6 feet into the key where it is rebounded by a different offensive player. Even if the first offensive player was not shoved from his position, he probably could not have got that rebound since it came off the rim so far. The first offensive player mentioned above is visibly standing out of bounds in front of the endline official, after regaining his momentum from an obvious push by the defensive player. Neither official called a foul on this situation.

Was this no call because there was no apparent advantage gained by the defensive player making the shove? Or would it be more likely because neither official saw the actual push (even though they could not miss the after effect of the offensive player falling out of bounds)?

What if the offensive player was hurt in this situation due to the shove by the defensive player? Would that have made any difference in the call/no call decision?

The Zapruder film made it look like JFK got shot from the front too, does not mean it happened that way.