To hear so many of you talking about your state just now considering going to 3 man crews for varsity levels, weak 3rd link, and last (but not least) budget constraints simply amazes me.

Here, in Alabama, the 46th-50th ranked state in about every state ranking in our country, we've been at the mandatory 3 man crew for ALL varsity level games (both regular season and playoffs, area/region/sectional/non-area regular season, etc) for 5 or 6 years now. And, we're ALWAYS way behind everyone else.

Yes, we heard the same issues brought up by the schools/coaches when the state made the choice to make it mandatory for all varsity level games to be 3 man crews. And, at first, their complaints were legit. There are still some nights when a lot of our varsity level officials can't work and the game load is heavy when our assignors have to reach down to the sub-varsity level pool of officials to bring up to complete the crews.

I live in the largest metro-sized area with the highest unemployment rate in the state. Our local association has approximately 90 members. We have contracts with 24 schools to provide their officials. I included this to let you know our area schools are no where near having lots of surplus money to throw around.

A few years back our local association board felt since the state made it mandatory for all varsity level games to be worked by 3 man crews, we should train our younger/newer officials at the sub-varsity levels working 3 person crews too. Our local board met with the schools, convinced them to 'invest' the money at the sub-varsity level to pay for the extra official. In a few years time, they would be able to see their 'investment' pay off as 'their' officials moving up to the varsity level would be much better prepared to work at the varsity level upon arrival.

Part of the agreement we made with the schools was a concession on our part in the amount of pay we would receive (individually). Normal game fees for 7th-9th grade games were $25 per offical. $25 x 2 (officials) = $50 per game for officials. Our board offered for us to work the games for $20 per official = $20 x 3 (officials) = $60 per game for officials the schools agreed to pay. JV games were $30 per official, we agreed to do those for $25 which meant the schools agreed to pay $75 per game versus $60 per game in a 2 man crew. We agreed to these rates for either one or two years, then the schools would agree to pay each official the standard rate as set by the state.

To say this has worked positively would be an understatement. We now have 2nd and 3rd year officals getting to come up and call some varsity level games. And, the vast majority of the ones that get to come up are competent to do the job. As all of you veteran officials know, there is nothing that can educate an official as much as game experience, so, there is nothing that can replace game experience for getting these level officials prepared for the highest intensity games. But, for a 2nd or 3rd year official, getting the opportunity to move up and work any varsity level game is a big stage and a great experience.

I know this post is lengthy, but, I also hope it might benefit some of you that have some pull with your local associations. If any of you would like more information or ideas that I haven't covered here, feel free to e-mail me.

Thanks for your time,

Lee

btw, I'm interested in seeing what each state has as a guideline/mandatory number of officials - varsity and sub-varsity levels - to officiate basketball games.

Please list your state and the # of officials required

Wyoming 2 officials, next year they will allow schools to hire 3, the year after I am hearing that it might be mandated at least at the upper levels, but none of that is official yet..

Indiana - 2-man crews for first 2 rounds of sectionals(first-round). 3-man crews from then on. Most larger schools use 3-man crews this year but there are still alot of schools using 2 officials for the regular season. Hearing rumors that 3-man is going to be required shortly.

I am new to Indiana and this surprised me because of the reputation Indiana basketball has. Coming from Missouri where last year had 3-man crews throughout the playoffs this was a huge surprise.

In Illinois we use 3 Person for all playoff games. Both boy's and girl's basketball use 3 person as well and all classes. We have two classes in our state. Class A is for the small schools and Class AA is for the larger schools.

Peace

Minnesota
 

Minnesota uses 3 person for all State Tournament games (4 classes: 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A) starting last year. Playoff games, called sub-sections and sections, are at the choice of the sections and the vast majority are 2 person. Regular season is the choice is the choice of the school or conference. Majority still 2 person. The problem this creates is for the true high scholl official to get 3 person court experience. Very little opportunity for many officials during regular season. Options are getting some JUCO or D3 college games and summer camps.

Southern Nevada: 3 man at Varsity boys and girls, 2 man for JV and below.

However, smaller schools can, by agreement, use 2 man. Some 1A schools (small private religious ones usually) dont have the budget and use 2 man. Which is how I got my first varisty assignment--2 man crew for a V girls game at a 1A school.

Clark

Oregon -- 2-whistle, 2-whistle, 2-whistle. And at the state tournament, 2-whistle. Boys', Girls', 2-whistle. All varsity, 2-whistle. All play-offs, 2-whistle. It's a very simple set-up.

By the way, I finally had the pleasure of working a 3 man game (actually I got to work on the Thomas & Mack main floor in Vegas, it was so cool! but that's another story).

It was my first real 3 man experience in a real game. I had done 2 scrimmages using 3 man, but no prior actual games.

First of all, I was blown away and how great 3 man is. I can see now why you want to use it at the higher levels. It is so much easier to watch my area. Sure, it is hard learning the switching C to T when the L moves and getting comfortable moving to strongside as the L more often than I would in 2 man and remembering to rotate, but all in all (particularly the C and T) it was so much easier to cover the floor.

I really hope my association sticks with 3 man (and I hope I get to get some 3 man Varsity games :) )

Our association is really trying to convince the schools to keep 3 man. All the issues raised above (cost, thinking they arent getting that much bang for the buck for 3 rather than 2, quality of all 3 officials, etc).

I'd love to see our association try to work the system you suggested--find a way to work the younger guys into 3 man at lower level games so that we could get the experience.

Clark

I am in VA. We use 3-whistle for all varsity games and 2-whistle for frosh/jv. We have 3 classifications for schools: A, AA, and AAA, with AAA being the largest.

Nebraska uses 2-whistle for the most part. We did use 3-whistle for the Metro Conference tournament last year, however, they threw that out this year because the tournament didn't make as much money using 3-whistle. The only time we used 3-whistle this year was for some big Shootout thing at the Qwest Center here in Omaha.

There's talk the Metro Conference might go to 3-whistle for varsity ball next year, and in that process might have someone from the state office (NSAA) at a lot of the games to see how it goes. Sounds like the NSAA is thinking 3-whistle in the next few years. But then again, that's all talk. I'll believe it all when there's ACTION!

As for subvarsity, we'll probably always be 2-whistle. I say that because in subvaristy football below the JV level, we're still 3-whistle and not 4. Some areas will still be in the dark ages.

Oh, I should add. Western Iowa still is 2-whistle. I believe that's the standard for the entire state. As for their state tournament, still 2-whistle, although there was talk at one of the rules meetings last year (I only go every other year in Iowa) that they might be considering 3-whistle for state tournament within the next few years. Haven't had a chance to bump into a resident Iowan official to ask if that chatter was still going on this year.

Montana - Most schools use 2 man but have the option to request 3. State tournaments this year are required to be a 3 person crew. This will filter down to earlier tourneys in future years. Fee schedule was also changed for three man crews versus 2 man. A 2 man cre each will get $50 for varsity or $30 for subvarsity. 3 man crews receive $42.50 varsity, and $25.50 for subvarsity.
Seems schools are mixed, but most are trying the 3man.

Wow, we're not last in something at least
 

We in Mississippi have been doing three man for the last four/five years and all three man in playoffs the last two years.

At first they only did three man for the larger schools.

Our local association does solely three man for all varsity contests.

We found that was a great way to keep our veteran officials from giving it up. Lot easier on the legs.

And most of them only do three man in college etc.,

thanks
David

The Annual 2 Man / 3 Man Poll
 

In NC, the NCHSAA requires that all varsity games be officiated by 3 man crews. It's been mandatory for about 15 years.

rolltide, you'll find that the rest of the country is actually way behind the South with regard to 3 man officiating. VA, NC, SC, GA, AL, MS, TN, and FL all use primarily 3 man. Yet, our more "sophitiscated" neighbors to the north and west don't. And agree with you. Budgets are no tighter in the South than they are anywhere else in the country.

In our local association, we use 3 man for JV games and have for several years. Officials get $40 for 1 game and $60 for a doubleheader. We do not use 3 man for middle school, 7th-8th grade games.

Mr. Spelling's head just exploded.

In Ohio
 

it goes by conference, but all boys varsity that I know of are 3-whistle, and a growing number of girls varsity is now also 3-whistle. Almost all sub-varsity is still 2-whistle.

Good! That was my intent! We kant spel in da Souf.

Northern Nevada has 4 classes(A,2A,3A,4A)3A and 4A.
All V contests for 3A and 4A is 3 person.
Some pre-season 4A tourneys have requested 2 person due to that being their fund raisers.
All post-season games are 3 person. That starts next week for us.
$55.50 for 2 person V games
$45.00 for 4A 3 person V games
3 for the price of 2 agreement in 3A as this their first year for 3 person crews. So it is essentially $37.00 for 3A V games.
We are very fortunate to be in the sitch that we are.
AAR

Arkansas
 

5 Classifications 1A-5A. 3 Whistle in varsity games except for some lower classification non-conference games. And the three schools that I have some 9th grade games at I have taken 3 whistle crews there also. State Association has set minimum pay scale at $30 per official per varsity contest and $25 per official for jv and below. In 3A and below you will call a 9th grade game,followed by 2 V contests. In 4-5A, they have a jv game usually and contract that game out to locals some of the time so the V crew doesnt call it.

Ohio...

BV - all 3 whistle
GV - most 3 whistle, some leagues still 2

Varsity pays $50-$55 in our area regardless of gender or school division. Just depends on the league

all FR and JV are 2 whistle
Most everyone's FR is $25. JV you get $30-$37.

Re: Wow, we're not last in something at least
 

David: I may have asked you this before, but memory is going bad. What part of MS? I grew up in Hattiesburg and went to USM - class of '70.

A third official is cheaper than a second policeman.

How consistant can we be as officials if we are switching back and forth? Not in mechanics, because it shouldn't really take more than a handful of games to get the rotations down in 3 man, but in calling the game? I assume that more whistles are made in a 3 man game because more court is watched. This would drive me crazy if I were a coach, to play one style of ball all year long, reach the playoffs, and find another style of game.

Coaches always state they want consistancy in officials. It needs to be consistant across the season. Budget constraints or not, I think its only fair to go one way or the other the entire season.

I can't tell you if more whistles are being blown in 3 person but if you are a coach that wants a fair game called then he/she should recognize that they will get a better officiated game w/ 3 person most of the time. I know that when doing 2 person with varsity quality players and alot of activity in the post it is extremely hard to see everything. There might even be less calls made in 3 person because the crew caught all the rough post play, hand checking, illegal screens early in the game. If players get away with it early then they are more inclined to play that way the entire game. When working 2 person it is easier to let a game get away from you. You end up only seeing retaliations which frustrate players and encourages the first one to do it again. IMO.

Pa Official,

You brought up one of the points I've thought about as I read some of these other posts. However, I'm not sure I agree with your statement about 'mechanics'.

The biggest difference, from my experience anyway, in working 2 man vs 3 man is working the Lead, frontcourt-baseline. Whereas in a 2 man crew, we don't rotate, in a 3 man crew you do cross the lane and rotate.

I can tell you that I see a big difference in the way a lot of our veterans (non college level officials) that called 2 man for 20+ years (no rotating with ball in the frontcourt) work the baseline vs the younger officials that have worked in 3 man crews their entire tenure (5-6 years).

The younger less experienced guys rotate much quicker than the veterans. If I were to call all season in 2 man crews then have to implement 3 man 'mechanics' for playoffs, I personally don't think the 3 man crew will call nearly as good of a game.

Reasons I would offer to validate this statement:
1) I wouldn't rotate when working the L nearly as much as I probably should (remember, when the L doesn't rotate when needed, C and T are NOT in good positions to referee)

2) I wouldn't be used to the different primary area

3) I would be more hesitant to blow my whistle because of indecision as to whether or not it is my call

4) I would be doing too much thinking instead of being able to relax, let my reflexes/instincts take over, because I would be out of my normal element

I assume the 'mechanics' you were referring to are what positions we are to take on the floor following fouls, violations, oob in frontcourt/backcourt, etc. I would agree that those mechanics would be easy to adjust to (to the officials that have called in a few 3 man crews before)

Why don't you rotate as lead? I do and most that I know around here do. You just have to get back to the other side when you go the other way.

I've only worked 3 man crew the past 6 years or so except for one game when one of my partners didn't show and we worked 2 man (and that was 4 years ago). If my memory serves me correctly, I had to catch myself when I was L not crossing the lane.

I don't recall from my 2 man days where we ever were supposed to have both officials on the same side of the court. Maybe we did, but, that was many many many ballgames ago.

VA also
 

Virigina also. I like the set up here 3 person varsity AA or higher. In my district public schools Single A must use 3 person and if they don't want to then they can find another association. Strong commissioner here, its nice.

In Oklahoma, its up to the home school until playoffs. They decide what kind of crew, what the pay will be, and for the most part, in cases outside the metro areas (Tulsa and OKC), they hire the refs. The metro areas use
assignors. In rural areas, you contract your own games.

Regular season, 6A and most 5A use 3 man. 4A, 3A, 2A, A, and B use 2 man.

Playoffs, 6A and 5A use 3 man, all others use 2 man.

JV- 2 man

Jr. Hi, all use 2 man.

Regualr season, no set fees. Different schools pay different amounts. Playoffs, state association sets fee at $35 per game.

Regular season, one crew works all games. High school - varsity girls then varsity boys. 2 man crew works both games, and paid between $85 - 100. 3 man crew works both games, and paid around $70.

JV- 2 man, work both boys and girls JV, usually $60.
Jr high- usually $25 per game, which is either 3 boys or 3 girls games.

You shouldn't necessarily have <b> more </b> whistles in 3-person, just better ones. I suppose you might have a couple more off-ball calls per game, but coaches should appreciate that rather than having them be missed (coaches don't like rough play right?). My experience with 3-person is that 99% of the time I see the <b> whole </b> play rather than just the end of something. You are calling what you see rather than the "educated guesses" we sometimes have to make in 2-person when we turn and pick up the very end of a play.

Here in Washington State, we are at the beginning of a three-year "trial period" of 3-person. State tournaments and district playoffs are 3-person. Regular season games are either 2-person or 3-person and it's a negotation between each local ref association and the schools they serve. With our schools, we ended up doing 3-person on pretty much every night (varsity games only) except for Friday nights when we just don't have enough officials to cover everything. During this trial period, the schools are basically getting 3 officials for the price of 2 so us officials are taking all the pain (we would have been happy with a compromise). You'd think the schools would love it.. and some do. But some of the schools are resisting like crazy. We officials aren't happy about taking the brunt, but it's an executive decision made by the WOA so we have no choice in the matter. We're going along with and having a great time doing 3-person and making the best of it.

4A Varsity regular-season rates (during the trial period):

2-person ($48.00 per official plus travel)
3-person ($33.00 per official plus travel)

Z

Mid State League in Central OH is now putting in 3 whistle crews for selected frosh/JV doubleheaders to train future varsity officials. As a 3rd year official, I take every opportunity to learn that I can get.