Flagrant fouls

[RefAHallic]

Why isn't there an official mechanic for flagrant fouls in high school? Is it a combination of mechanics (intentional/technical?). I think I had one last night. Girl intentionally swung the elbow and it connected with a defender's jaw. The impact could be heard across the gym. Sounded like a fist pounding into an open palm. Anyway, I called player control and it happened to be the girl's fifth foul so she was gone anyway. But as I examined what happened after the game I thought that I probably should have called a flagrant foul ejecting the player and giving the other team FTs and the ball. How would or should I signal a flagrant foul?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RefAHallic
Why isn't there an official mechanic for flagrant fouls in high school? Is it a combination of mechanics (intentional/technical?). I think I had one last night. Girl intentionally swung the elbow and it connected with a defender's jaw. The impact could be heard across the gym. Sounded like a fist pounding into an open palm. Anyway, I called player control and it happened to be the girl's fifth foul so she was gone anyway. But as I examined what happened after the game I thought that I probably should have called a flagrant foul ejecting the player and giving the other team FTs and the ball. How would or should I signal a flagrant foul?

If the reason you wanted the flagrant was to give ft's, you could have given an intentional. Sounds like it would have been an easy sell. A flagrant PC still doesn't give ft's.

My guess is that there is no mechanic for flagrant is that it would be too inflammatory. If someone is already swinging, any thing that would make the situation hotter would be counter productive.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by rainmaker
If the reason you wanted the flagrant was to give ft's, you could have given an intentional. Sounds like it would have been an easy sell. A flagrant PC still doesn't give ft's.

I can't speak for NFHS rules, but in NCAA there is no such thing as a "flagrant player control" foul. A player control foul is a common foul (neither intentional or flagrant). A flagrant foul, no matter who commits it, always carries the penalty of two shots plus the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

If the reason you wanted the flagrant was to give ft's, you could have given an intentional. Sounds like it would have been an easy sell. A flagrant PC still doesn't give ft's.

[/B][/QUOTE]Juulie, there's no such animal as a flagrant PC foul in NFHS rules either. PC fouls are always common fouls. If the player with the ball commits an intentional or flagrant act, then the the call would be either an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul, with the appropriate penalties.

[jdccpa]

No PC foul for me, (I don't take kindly to elbow throwers):

I would have given the intentional foul sign, bird dogged the offender (for emphasis), gave her color and number, said "That's a flagrant foul and you are out of the game".

Reported the foul to the table as a flagrant foul and then told her coach: "I have a flagrant on your number #. She is disqualified."

I would then tell the table to start the 30 sec. clock.

Hustled to mid court to confer with my partner to tell him what had just taken place. (So we shoot the foul shots at the right basket.)

We switch. We shoot the foul shots with the lane cleared. Put the ball in play nearest the point of the foul

After the game I would have reported the foul to my supervisor. (Two game suspension where I come from.)



[Edited by jdccpa on Feb 8th, 2005 at 11:09 AM]

[TriggerMN]

All flagrant fouls in NFHS are 2 shots and the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jdccpa

I would have given the intentional foul sign, bird dogged the offender (for emphasis), gave her color and number, said "That's a flagrant foul and you are out of the game".

Why would you give the intentional foul signal for a flagrant foul? They're two completely different animals.

[jdccpa]

4-19-3 An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul....
4-19-4 A flagrant foul may be a personal or techical foul...

Doesn't this mean that an intentional foul could also be a flagrant foul?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jdccpa
4-19-3 An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul....
4-19-4 A flagrant foul may be a personal or techical foul...

Doesn't this mean that an intentional foul could also be a flagrant foul?

No, an intentional personal foul can never be a flagrant personal foul. They're completely different, and that's why they are covered in different rules. Rule 4-19-3 for intentional fouls and R4-19-4 for flagrant fouls. The penalties are completely different. There is no disqualification accompanying an intentional foul, be it of the personal or technical variety. A flagrant foul, either personal or technical, always has disqualification as part of the penalty.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
All flagrant fouls in NFHS are 2 shots and the ball.

Even if it occurs on an unsuccessful 3-point attempt?

[ChrisSportsFan]

Has to be 3 fouls shots. Can't penalize a 3 point shooter. I just talked to some guys about this the other day. I think I'm right, I hope. ?

[jdccpa]

Ok...so now I have my fist in the air and I have a flagrant foul, do I give the throwing elbow mechanic and then report it to the table as a flagrant foul?

[Adam]

Chances are with a flagrant, you'll need to step in to make sure it doesn't escalate. After the situation has calmed, go report it. Don't worry about a preliminary signal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jdccpa
Ok...so now I have my fist in the air and I have a flagrant foul, do I give the throwing elbow mechanic and then report it to the table as a flagrant foul?

Yup, fist in the air to stop the clock and also signal a foul. Then there is no actual official signal for a flagrant foul. A lot of officials use the baseball "y'er outa here" heave-ho signal. Some wise-asses just wave bye-bye to the player/coach(just kidding- don't try that at home). Then you just report it to the table as either a flagrant personal or flagrant technical foul. Usually, it's best to write the time and circumstances of the foul somewhere on the scoresheet too- because it's fairly common that there are automatic suspensions involved with the disqualification. If a player is tossed, they have to remain on the bench. If it's a coach, he goes to the dressing room or parking lot- his choice. Flagrant personals are 2 FT's to the player fouled, and a spot throw-in to that team at the closest OOB spot to where the foul occurred. Flagrant technicals are 2 shots and any player(s) can shoot either FT. Throw-in after the technical FT's is at center opposite the table.

Think that covers most everything.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Flagrant personals are 2 FT's to the player fouled, and a spot throw-in to that team at the closest OOB spot to where the foul occurred.

As I asked earlier - even if it occurs on an unsuccessful 3-point attempt?