bad calls

[dk0170]

Just looking for some clarification- just finished watching an NCAA mens game where there seems to be trend of calls being made where there is no contact made (especially on break-aways). From the most basic level for a foul to be called doesn't there have to be contact? If so then why are assumptions made by the officials that there was and also why is the call being made by an official who is out of position to make the call?

[williebfree]

dk0170

First, welcome to the forum... IF you are here to sincerely learn, your knowledge will make quantum leaps.

Asa for your first posting, you need to provide specific situations for the forum to provide valuable feedback. FWIW, I suspect there are a number of knowledgeable “regulars” here who will take great offense to the "implied" challenge of your post.

Having said the above, I think it is important for you to seriously consider how you are assessing the quality of officiating. If your source of knowledge comes from announcers’ comments, then I would suggest you need a more authoritative source.

Can you cite a specific situation that may have been nationally (or at least regionally) televised?

To answer your question about the necessity of contact for a foul... in MOST CASES contact must occur. I am willing to wager that some of our seasoned veterans will offer an exemption.

Please note the following definition is for NFHS, I am NOT versed to answer the differences in wording for NCAA.

NFHS Rule 4-Section 19 Article 1…. a foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while ht ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

[Edited by williebfree on Feb 7th, 2005 at 10:11 PM]

[tomegun]

Did you see what the official saw at the same angle on these plays or were you sitting your butt in a lazy boy?

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by dk0170
Just looking for some clarification- just finished watching an NCAA mens game where there seems to be trend of calls being made where there is no contact made (especially on break-aways). From the most basic level for a foul to be called doesn't there have to be contact? If so then why are assumptions made by the officials that there was and also why is the call being made by an official who is out of position to make the call?

If you come to this forum for advice and a better understanding of the game, you need to be more specific in describing plays. Your statements are much too general and sound a bit like sour grapes, if you don't mind my saying.

[SpeedyGonGoalie]

1) Angle- you probably didn't ever see what the refs saw to make them call a foul.
2) Anticipation- on a break away, it's especially tempting to see a guy setting up for a block or to contest the shot and you just know he's going to foul, and he ends up barely not fouling.
3) Big Ten officiating?

[Gozer]

All angles, not distance, so I would bet money that there was contact somewhere along the line. Also, remember officials have to breathe too, so it could have been a "delayed" wistle.

Take care,

Kenny

[I'msureofit]

but I've been monitoring it with great interest for quite some time now. With nearly a 1000 officiated games under my belt and a passion for the profession I find this forum extrememly informative- -to the point nothing else gets done sometimes. Enough of all that for now, just glad to be here.

I have to agree first and foremost that the angle of an official is more credible than a live or TV spectator. On the other hand, I've worked with officials that make calls where they had no view of the play, and, furthermore, were too lazy to move thier butts a couple of feet to get a better view. I practice the preaching of don't see it, don't call it, especially when you're not in any position to call it.

On what appears to be the poster's frustration of "nickel and dimers"/touch fouls, it sometimes frustrates me as well while watching some NCAA games,particularly. Replay will certainly point out the quality of any call by any official when there are many cameras available on the big network games. Case in point was the SU UConn game Monday night. Now, as an offical I am quick to forgive a bad call because we all make em'. However, in this game they repeatedly got caught with bad touch fouls by the camera, or what I think is the sin of anticipating a call. I would rather wait that split second more to assure my sighting on the play and be accused of a semi late whistle. The accused we're talking about are repeated and respected Final Four officials who could have just had a bad game, and we all have them too from time to time.

In the end, I believe it's rare that officals decide the game and it's the team that loses the game for them selves; good teams adjust to calls and play through it. Oh, another case in point comes to mind from the Rutgers Seton Hall game late last night. Clock expires in OT and Rutgers launches a 3 and the C from behind calls a foul. Replay showed the shooter wasn't even touched, although the appearance of a touch existed, and that the C was totally screened from the play when he made the call. One of three at the line and game to Rutgers. Ouch, I would have at the very least let that call come from the L where a- -potential- -point of contact could have been seen, or called nothing at all. Now, wouldn't that begin an argument of an official deteriming the outcome of a game? Oh well, I'm an official and I defend his call. All said, game over, learned something new, and onto the next one. Thanks for reading.

[Back In The Saddle]

Just two thoughts. If the game is a rivalry game and there have been incidents in the past, then the officials might be deliberately calling it very tight.

Camera angles can be very deceiving. They are inherently 2-D and often quite far away (although zoomed in). If you find a camera angle that shows that no contact occurred, you can believe that. If the camera shows that contact did occur, that is less certain. We've all had situations where our partner(s) grabbed something when we know for certain there was no contact. Reason, from their angle it looked like there was contact. But from our angle, we could see that there was none. And that is from 20-30 feet away.

[thumpferee]

To stir the pot a bit, I don't see calls being made that should be while I sit in my lazy chair.

Seems to be alot of pushing off down low on rebounds, hip checks and lean-ins on screens, flopping
Some of the best calls of the night may be a "No Call" but geez.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by I'msureofit
Replay will certainly point out the quality of any call by any official when there are many cameras available on the big network games.

I have to disagree with this statement. Unless there is a camera mounted on the official's head, the camera is not going to have the same view as the official on every play in a game. That's what you insinuate when you write, "...the quality of any call..." It's just not possible.

[I'msureofit]

BktBallRef, my usage of any, as it pertained to camera angles, was too absolute to apply to all circumtances in a game. Thanks for the correction. However, in the high profile game (SU v UConn) I cited, Higgins and Burr did get unquestionably caught by the cameras with no contact/defensive player altering the offensive player's ability to make a play. Three replays come to mind that were dead nuts on and the calling official was in a good position. So in sum, bad calls, and we all do em', but a little disappointing considering their experience.

If the argument is that a rivarly game, as Back in the Saddle commented, that has the potential to become rough and out of control, I would have take issue with that. Yes, it has been my strategy and that of many of my partners to call one tighter to keep control in a hyper game but you still need to call what you see regardless of the game's meaning; and, I know the game's meaning is not always easy to ignore. Let the game be the game. or as some say let the game come to you, and not the meaning of the game (e.g. championships). I will admit that I have made such anticipatory calls in my experience, but I always grimace upstairs afterwards that I did. Didn't call what was actually seen because I didn't actually see it. Those calls have always been conscience benders but, more importantly, they have been learning experiences. You will rarely catch me today doing that unless a player's safety hangs in the balance such as breakaway. Thanks all for your read and best wishes for you having great games this weekend- -playoff time! Take care.