As I posted on here, I had a problem with a coach about a week ago, and I had him again yesterday. Though I was worried about it, I took the advice I got here and my mission was to start with a clean slate. The whole game went smoothly, I got to work with a great partner, it was really a lot of fun. I think the coach was a little surprised when I treated him the same as the first game, but it worked. I found out after the game I was being evaluated, but that turned out really well too, though, I really need to remember to give preliminary signals. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited by SF on Feb 7th, 2005 at 12:08 AM]

What is preliminary signals? Good Job :)

After you pull your fist down from calling the foul you're supposed to indicate the nature of the foul with a preliminary signal. (hold, block, hand check, etc.)

Maybe in your world, but none of us do that around here. You'll find, after being in this awhile, that evaluators are pretty arbitary when it comes to things like this.

There are some places that worry about how well you call the games rather than bullcrap things like this.

You will find that many officials and evaluators don't use nor require preliminary signals on every foul.

Block/charge, handcheck, or selling a push are the only ones I'll use regularly. I'm pretty vocal and do say what I have on the spot, but I don't give a preliminary every foul.

If it isn't worried about in your area great. However, to call proper NFHS mechanics "bullcrap" is a bit strong. The NFHS officals manual states that it is <b> imperative that a definite procedure be used when a foul is called </b> and then lists the procedure. A preliminary signal is included in that procedure. You can't go wrong by doing it right.

Around here, we do it by the book. If you don't do the proper mechanics at our state tournaments (including preliminary signals), it's one possible reason for the state evaluators to "separate you" from the other excellent officials who are there.

Z

Z,

The procedure might be proper, but not always required. I really only use a preliminary signal when I have to sell a call. On most shooting fouls where the basket goes in, I never seem to use a preliminary signal at all. It comes down to where you live and what is required by those around you.

Peace

Yep, that's pretty much what I said. Around here, it's encouraged and at our state tournament it's imperative. It's also great communication. I would still say that new officials should learn to do it right... and if they look at the NFHS officials manual, they will see that it isn't written as "optional."

Z

If your call is correct and you know 100% that it is correct(or you shouldn't be making it), then why do you have to "sell" it? http://www.officialforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

J/K

We are not at all saying the same thing. You are saying that the NF way is the only way and the right way. I am saying that the "right way" is based on where you live and what is required. That might be in conflict with what the NF wants. Again, the NF does not give playoff assignments. The NF does not run clinics in most areas if at all. Officiating is as much about philosophy as it is what the book says or does not say. I have yet to see an official call a player control foul and use the NF mechanic in all the playoff games I have watched. So I am sure giving a preliminary signal being used or not is not always going to be considered a big deal.

Peace

Rich, I'm not sure why you're writing this off as bullcrap.

Apparently SHE did well enough in what could have been a tough situation that the only negative comment from HER evaluator is SHE should work on giving a preliminary. If an evaluator came into the locker room & told me he saw *nothing* I could improve on I would wonder just what the hell he bothered to watch me for. And if he told me I should think about giving a better prelim when blowing a foul I would damn sure work on giving a prelim when blowing a foul.

edit - oops...just realized the S in SF stands for Sara. :o

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 7th, 2005 at 12:35 PM]

Because it lacks substance.

I guarantee you that a good evaluator can find something in my game, your game, Sara's game that will help us be better officials. Get better position, looks at plays, help with judgment. If the "preliminary signal" comment was designed to keep Sara from rushing to the table, great. If it's just because she didn't give a hack signal on the spot of the foul, well, it's not a terribly useful comment, IMO.

The people on this thread that say you "can't go wrong" using the officials' manual are not entirely correct -- if my evaluators/association/assignors would rather use mechanics contrary to the manual, I'd better learn how to adapt. Fortunately, I don't have to worry too much about this as I don't receive assignments via assocations.

Rich, I'm still not getting this.

Sara's evaluator told her to do 'X'. You tell Sara the advice is bullcrap & you tell me it lacks substance. You have no idea why the evaluator said what he said, you have no idea what specifics he went into with Sara about what she needs to work on, but still it's bullcrap and lacks substance.

I'm not getting it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

We are not at all saying the same thing. You are saying that the NF way is the only way and the right way. I am saying that the "right way" is based on where you live and what is required. That might be in conflict with what the NF wants. Again, the NF does not give playoff assignments. The NF does not run clinics in most areas if at all. Officiating is as much about philosophy as it is what the book says or does not say. I have yet to see an official call a player control foul and use the NF mechanic in all the playoff games I have watched. So I am sure giving a preliminary signal being used or not is not always going to be considered a big deal. Peace

If you will read my post, you'll see that I said that if that's the way it works in Rich's area great. I'm sorry if you cannot either read or comprehend, but I am used to that from you. I didn't say it was the only way.

Proper high school mechanics during high school games are a big thing in my area. If Sara said she forgot her preliminary mechanic, it sounds as if prelim signals are important in her area too. Where I work, evaluators care about how the game is called and they also care very much about how the signals are communicated as well. Having the complete package is never a bad thing.

Z

I guess what I'm waiting for is Sara to come back on and tell us why the evaluator told her that the preliminary signals are important.

Dan, you are right -- I should've asked this first instead of just calling it bullcrap, but I'm just anticipating that the assignor told her this for no reason other than "it's in the book." To me, it's lazy evaluating.

Whenever I evaluate someone in baseball, I always explain WHY something is important. Because it's in the manual isn't a good enough answer, not in my book.

If the preliminary signal is important to keep Sara from rushing to the table, fine. If it's to communicate to her partner the nature of the foul (I'm not sure why this is important unless hacks, pushes and holds have different penalties) I can live with that, too.

Side question: When you folks that always signal preliminary signals signal on a made basket, do you raise your fist, score the basket, and then also give a prelim on the spot?

--Rich

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge Quote: We are not at all saying the same thing. You are saying that the NF way is the only way and the right way. I am saying that the "right way" is based on where you live and what is required. That might be in conflict with what the NF wants. Again, the NF does not give playoff assignments. The NF does not run clinics in most areas if at all. Officiating is as much about philosophy as it is what the book says or does not say. I have yet to see an official call a player control foul and use the NF mechanic in all the playoff games I have watched. So I am sure giving a preliminary signal being used or not is not always going to be considered a big deal. Peace If you will read my post, you'll see that I said that if that's the way it works in Rich's area great. I'm sorry if you cannot either read or comprehend, but I am used to that from you. I didn't say it was the only way. Proper high school mechanics during high school games are a big thing in my area. If Sara said she forgot her preliminary mechanic, it sounds as if prelim signals are important in her area too. Where I work, evaluators care about how the game is called and they also care very much about how the signals are communicated as well. Having the complete package is never a bad thing. Z

And I won't disagree with you there, especially since you said the evaluators also care about how the game is called.

I apologize if I was sounding too negative, but I've had quite a bit of experience with the "we don't care what you're call is as long as you look good making it" types of people.

After reading the first post in this thread, I'm not sure exactly how it turned into this.

Sara's evaluator said he wanted to see preliminary signals. Now I don't think it really matters how important we think preliminary signals are, but what does matter is that the evaluator said he wanted to see them. When an evaluator tells me I'm doing something wrong, I fix it without question. If your area doesn't believe in giving preliminary signals, great, but if you officiate in an association like mine where everything is expected to be done by the book, then you better do it by the book.

All evaluators are not made the same. All evaluators do not have or carry the same weight. If an evaluator tells me something, it is possible that what they are telling me can and are in conflict with another evaluator or clinician. If you attend many camps you will find different opinions on the very same thing. This is why you have to ask around and figure out what is acceptable. Maybe this particular evaluator is not someone that has any playoff consideration and just works for the local association. Or the person might be a person that reports back to the people that gives out playoff games and other evaluators have been telling officials to do things that are outside of that philosophy. Sometimes an official does not have one solid voice on what to do and what not to do. Not everyone comes from an association that does everything for the official. I think you need to consider that this evaluator just might not have any real say in how this official progresses. I personally can evaluate officials for my local association, but I have no pull to who gets playoff games or how quickly that official advances.

Peace

We agree 100%.

As far as calling the game, I agree that it is the most important thing, and that part of the evaluation went well.

He told me to use preliminary signals for two reasons:

1) Sometimes I seemed like I was in a rush to get to the table, so he said by giving a preliminary signal, I would have to slow down and everything would go more smoothly.

2) He said that it is not one of those things that make or break an official, but it is one of the small things that may, down the road, help seperate me from other official(s).

I didn't know people got so passionate about preliminary signals. :D

You should see how we get when we're talking about subsequential signals!!

Or pants!

I understand the pants, but it's shoes that seem to get people really edgy. :D Patent leather or not? Don't even get 'em started.

You ain't heard nothin' till you heard the belt/no belt, pleats/no pleats discussion. It makes the patent leather arguement sound like a kindergarten lesson.