Coach uses F*** word

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
It's not the F word that makes it flagrant. It's this quote from the original post that makes it flagrant:

"the head coach of this team shouted "I hope you can sleep tonight because you just f***ed my boys tonight". "You just f***ed my boys"."

That might be the case. That is not how it was characterized by certain individuals. It was said that the F-word was an automatic Flagrant foul. I just want to know why that is so bad and other profane words are not "automatic."

Peace

[Smitty]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I also do not care what others think like Bob, Tony or JR think as it relates to my own philosophy. I do not have to accept their point of view on it because it offends them. You call me a "b!tch" I might take that a lot differently than most here depending on who said it and in what context it is used. Any official has the right to take on whatever point of view on this they like, but I just wanted to know why this word was so bad and deserved an automatic ejection and other words for some reason do not meet that criteria.

Peace

I think you answered your own question. For you, being called a b!tch might be extremely offensive in a certain context. I think it's fair to say that if someone makes a personal comment directed at them and that comment includes the f-word, most people would find that extremely offensive. That you would not only goes to your point that everyone is different about what offends them and what doesn't. I think a coach of a high school level team or below, representing a school, needs to be held to a higher standard when he's working in the confines of that relationship. The only true means we have to punish such actions is the flagrant foul. If you choose not to use that type of a punishment, that's within your rights as an official. Like most everything else, it's a judgement call.

[Edited by Smitty on Feb 7th, 2005 at 02:23 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Smitty


I think you answered your own question. For you, being called a b!tch might be extremely offensive in a certain context. I think it's fair to most people that if someone makes a personal comment directed at them and that comment includes the f-word, they would find that extremely offensive. That you would not only goes to your point that everyone is different about what offends them and what doesn't. I think a coach of a high school level team or below, representing a school, needs to be held to a higher standard when he's working in the confines of that relationship. The only true means we have to punish such actions is the flagrant foul. If you choose not to use that type of a punishment, that's within your rights as an official. Like most everything else, it's a judgement call.

I am not telling people that they should handle a situation the way I did. That is a big difference from others that are here. Even JR said that if one official does not penalize this action, it makes it harder on the next officials. Well I see that as crap because I really do not care what the other officials before me do. I am a different person and working with different people than the time before. I have no problem with what happens one night might not be the same the next night. If a coach rolls the dice he might just crap out. That is the chance that coach takes. But I do not like this point of view that I have to do what you do. To me that is your decision when you are in that situation. Just do not ridicule me because I do not feel the same way.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

****ing amazing.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

But, there have also been instances where the respone to the report was "it wasn't bad enough to earn a T, so it's not bad enough to punish now." (That's anecdotal, of course).

It doesn't take any time to walk past the scorer's table, instruct them to record a T, then leave. Now, you're covered.

If I was walking past the scorer's table, I would probably call a T and ask the scorer to put it in the book as I continued off the floor. If I was down at the end of the floor towards the locker room (which is what I was assuming from the original post), I am just going to keep going and write a report afterwards.

In my area, a coach would get just as much punishment (suspension) from the official's report than if I walk back to the table and have the scorer write a T down in the book. What purpose does it serve for me to go back since the coaches punishment will be the same either way? Answer: None.

I am not going to tolerate that abuse at the end of the game and my report will be very thorough. But for me to swim upstream against the players and coaches after that outburst is just dumb, IMHO.

Z

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Dan_Ref
****ing amazing.
__________________

See this isn't offensive. It's funny.

Originally posted by JRutledge


I am not telling people that they should handle a situation the way I did. That is a big difference from others that are here. Even JR said that if one official does not penalize this action, it makes it harder on the next officials. Well I see that as crap because I really do not care what the other officials before me do. I am a different person and working with different people than the time before. I have no problem with what happens one night might not be the same the next night. If a coach rolls the dice he might just crap out. That is the chance that coach takes. But I do not like this point of view that I have to do what you do. To me that is your decision when you are in that situation. Just do not ridicule me because I do not feel the same way.

Peace

Now this is offensive and you didn't even use the F-word.

We are our worst enemy.

And my statements are not meant to "ridicule" you.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Feb 7th, 2005 at 03:02 PM]

[Robmoz]

I tend to follow the Carlin Doctrine in determining what words are acceptable or not. That is, those seven (7) words you cannot say on regular television.

• $hit
• Pi$$
• Fu**
• C***
• C***sucker
• Motherf*****
• Ti*s

You utter any of these words in my game and you are gone.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman



In my area, a coach would get just as much punishment (suspension) from the official's report than if I walk back to the table and have the scorer write a T down in the book. What purpose does it serve for me to go back since the coaches punishment will be the same either way? Answer: None.

I am not going to tolerate that abuse at the end of the game and my report will be very thorough. But for me to swim upstream against the players and coaches after that outburst is just dumb, IMHO.

Z

This is my point. I have worked some games where there are metal detectors, security all over the place and a very hostile crowd. I am not going back into that situation to give a T to the table. Sorry, but I am not. I would not do that with no metal detectors at the door and little security. It sounds wonderful to have the opportunity to go back to the table and put something in the book. I just did a game where on our way to the locker room a fan said something very hostile to my crew after a game. You think I am going to go back out in that kind of situation just to make sure he loses a game? Sorry, but that is just plain dumb.

Peace

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by zebraman
...In my area, a coach would get just as much punishment (suspension) from the official's report than if I walk back to the table and have the scorer write a T down in the book. What purpose does it serve for me to go back since the coaches punishment will be the same either way? Answer: None.

I am not going to tolerate that abuse at the end of the game and my report will be very thorough. But for me to swim upstream against the players and coaches after that outburst is just dumb, IMHO.

Z

I agree in some ways and it is surely is a Had To Be There situation. But your answer of "None." is wrong to me. It is wrong because the crowd saw you permit/tolerate that behavior. You have now promoted it to them. Perhaps they are couth enough to understand your predicament and have their own scrupples to prevent themselves from doing similarly. Perhaps not. Perhaps that was the impetus they wanted and now they will feel it is acceptable to vent similarly.

To turn around and blow the whistle in his face "That's a flagrant technical foul, Coach. And I WILL file the paperwork. And you WILL be sitting out next game." sends a rather large meaning. You just don't deliver that message to the proper audience if you quietly file the paperwork and the coach sits a game.

Again HTBT.

Now turn and run!

[Smitty]

Originally posted by JRutledge

This is my point. I have worked some games where there are metal detectors, security all over the place and a very hostile crowd. I am not going back into that situation to give a T to the table. Sorry, but I am not. I would not do that with no metal detectors at the door and little security. It sounds wonderful to have the opportunity to go back to the table and put something in the book. I just did a game where on our way to the locker room a fan said something very hostile to my crew after a game. You think I am going to go back out in that kind of situation just to make sure he loses a game? Sorry, but that is just plain dumb.

Peace

So now you're saying that it's dumb to not do it your way. Isn't that just as bad as you scolding others for telling you to do it their way?

Our commissioner told us that any ejection is only valid if it's entered into the official scorebook. If it is not, the issue is open to appeal. This is probably a state thing. So before you go telling everyone how dumb it is to not do it your way, take a step back and realize that every area doesn't necessarily do things your way.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


Now this is offensive and you didn't even use the F-word.

We are our worst enemy.

And my statements are not meant to "ridicule" you.

You have some serious problems if you are always trying to use other officials as your barometers for your own judgment. I know a lot of officials that do thing that I would never do. If I am going to follow something an official does, they better be more successful than I am or better have some clout I do not have. Life is not fair and everything is not equal.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

For the record:

"You f***ed my boys!"

"You sons a b***hes screwed my boys!"

"D@mn you, you screwed my boys!"

"You screwed my boys! You'll never work here again!"

...would all get the coach tossed by me, whether it was before, during or after the game. Anyone here who wouldn't TCB is not doing his/her job and is just making it more difficult on the rest of us. I don't care who you are, how many years you've been calling, or how good you think you are. You're useless as an official in my book. JMHO


2.8.1 COMMENT:
Unsporting tactics, in general, involve relationships between opponents, between the players and officials, between the spectators and officials, between the players and spectators, between the coaches and spectators, and between coaches and officials. In most situations, it does not apply to the relationship of a player to teammates, nor to the coach and members of the team. However, these standards are not without exception. For example, profanity on the part of a participant, coach or member of the team is considered to be an unsporting act, whether or not the profanity is directed at any individual or is merely a means of “letting off steam.” (10-1-8; 10-3-7; 10-4-1)

5.6.4 SITUATION A:
Following the final horn in a game which has team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Smitty


So now you're saying that it's dumb to not do it your way. Isn't that just as bad as you scolding others for telling you to do it their way?

I think it is personally dumb to go into a hostile situation for the soul purpose to give a flagrant T to the table, when we there are situations where the officials might be threatened by the crowd, coaches or even players. I do not know about you, but I would rather avoid a possible fight and report the incident to the state where action will and can be taken by others.

Originally posted by Smitty
Our commissioner told us that any ejection is only valid if it's entered into the official scorebook. If it is not, the issue is open to appeal. This is probably a state thing. So before you go telling everyone how dumb it is to not do it your way, take a step back and realize that every area doesn't necessarily do things your way.

I feel sorry for the area you live in then. I bet if an official gets attacked by going back into an already hostile situation to put something in the book at that time, then that policy might change. That is why our state gives us a Special Report form to do that. We can file these reports for any violation of sportsmanship or incident that happens outside of the confines of the game. To me a coach doing that is outside of the confines of the game. I have had coaches that came into the locker room to confront coaches and my report got that coach suspended for multiple games. All reports have to be responded to and they are not limited to ejections. I would probably file a report if no profanity was used. It is not about the word it is what is said and how it is said.

Peace

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by JRutledge
It is not about the word it is what is said and how it is said.

Peace

You may have noticed that offensive delivery and profanity often come in the same bottle.

Just for the record, I would not go back to the table if I felt I was in danger and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else either.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Robmoz
I tend to follow the Carlin Doctrine in determining what words are acceptable or not. That is, those seven (7) words you cannot say on regular television.

• $hit
• Pi$$
• Fu**
• C***
• C***sucker
• Motherf*****
• Ti*s

You utter any of these words in my game and you are gone.

5 of those are no longer automatic, depending on context.