It is nearing HS playoff time here, and I would like some advice from others, especially the senior refs. As background, we do not use assignors. So, throughout the regular season, you generally call with one or two partners. However, once playoffs begin, the state association makes the assignments, and you can only submit the name of a preferred partner. The schools list ten refs they prefer.

Last year, I get my first playoff assignment, and am assigned to call with a ref I have never met. So, not only is this my first playoff, this will be the first time I have ever called with someone I didn't know.

I show up at the site, about 30 minutes before the required time, as I want to be early rather than chance being late. My partner shows up about 15 minutes after the required time. We introduce ourselves. His first question is "How many years have you called?" I say three. He says "I have called for over 20 years, done 10 state tournaments and 3 state championships. That's why they put you with me. Let's do a little pregame." He breaks out the board, puts the magnetic L and T on it, and I expect we are going to discuss rotation and so forth. He says, "This is the L. That stands for lead. This is the T, that stands for trail." He then goes on to discuss what area each official has, what free throw line extended means, what the coaches box is, the mechanics of reporting, etc., etc, etc. We never discuss things like, let's get the handchecking early, over the backs, make sure your first foul is a good one. We instead do Referee 101. I bite my tongue.

We take the court. It is a girls game. As in many first round playoffs, it is a fairly decent team vs. a team that knows it will be a huge upset to get past this round (first round loser eliminated). Both teams are pressing to start. After about 2 minutes of the first quarter, during a timeout, he tells me "if they get close to each other call a foul". I said "Even if its not a foul?" He says yes. I said "I'm not going to call a foul that isn't there". He says nothing, turns and walks away from me. He then proceeds to call about 4 very questionable, IMO, fouls in the next minute and a half, and the better team calls time out. He then comes to me and says..."see, this team only has one good player. They can't afford her in foul trouble. That team knows they are going to win if they don't lose their starters, so they can't afford foul trouble. Now, they are both going to get out of that pressing..THAT'S good game management". He again turns and walks off. A few minutes later, I have an out of bounds call on the baseline from his side of the court, I blow it dead, and ask for help. He just stares at me. I ask for help again, he just stares at me. I walk out towards him, he meets me halfway. I ask for help and he says "I'M not going to come in here and tell you who that went out on" and walks off. Next time out, he comes to me and says...you missed that foul over there, and actually points to the place on the court it had just happened. I say I didn't miss it, I passed on it. He then makes a fairly obvious rolling of his eyes and his head, shakes his head and walks off. My wife, who is a D-1 ref, is in the stands. After the game, she says it was obvious that he was showing open disagreement with my call.

Unfortunately, he is my parter the entire tournament. So, the next day I arrive, and he is sitting in our dressing room with the head coach and asst. coach of the one of the teams we are going to call. I walk in, no one acknowledges me. I start getting dressed, and they are telling him what great calls he made the night before in their first round game, etc., and he is asking who they play next, which of course depends on whether they win the game we are about to call. He starts talking about how they will match up with a certain team, who they will play only if they win. I finish dressing and go stretch in another area. After about 20 minutes, the coaches come out and I go back in. He proceeds to tell me how "that was good game management" on his part, they understand where he is coming from, etc. My thought is, if I am the other team's coach, and I find out they had this conversation in our dressing room, I am going to be po'd.

After all this, I talk to our local association president, and two other more experienced refs. They all tell me the same thing. You can report it if you want, but if he is connected enough to be getting that many state tournaments, you might be cutting your own throat, plus he is going to deny that he said it. So I did nothing.

With my next playoff assignment coming this week, I will be calling for the second time with someone I have never met, and I accept that the person will probably be much more experienced, but we are supposed to be the third team on the floor. Has anyone found a way of dealing with an arrogant, condescending partner, short of doing what I wanted, which was to grab him by his pencil necked geek throat and face slam him on the dressing room floor? I think that once I refused to follow his lead on the floor regarding calling phantom fouls, he retaliated.

I assume, despite his antics, that everyone would advise not to have it out on the floor, but I was tempted to when he did the rolling eyes and shaking head. Suggestions?

As someone much wiser than me once said:

Get in. Get done. Get out.

Stuff happens. Keep all that happened in your memory banks for when you are a seasoned vet, and make sure you don't treat any 3-year officials the way you didn't like being treated. What else can you do?

By the way, you're one of the lawyers, right? Good god, you people can write a lot... :D

My first thought is to move!

My second thought (the dark side) is to make his disagreemtent into a loud enough deal that you will have a witness and/or embarass him. Yes, right in the middle of the court. If your crew's integrity isn't there purposely you are already screwed. I would also find out how deeply he is connected and work to get there two then bust him out. His is NOT good for the game of basketball.

Would you really do all that stuff? Some of us just don't have the cajones to stand up to a guy like that, in the middle of a game, no less. I know I don't. Clearly the guy is highly "connected", whatever that means. He's getting all the choice assignments. Who's gonna listen to a 3-year guy? And it sounds like none of his peers in his area would stand up for him anyway. I like the move idea.

Works good for me. But hey, I just a jarhead so to me that would be classified as "training"

That would suck and he IS bad for the game and I'm glad I don't have to work with that guy. All that said, IF he is as connected as he says (50% filter factor for BS), IF he calls all his games like that, IF he regularly has locker room conversations with coaches, IF he actually has a regular partner who is on his same page, IF, IF, IF. I gotta believe he'll be found out soon enough. You don't call that deep into the state tourney without state association brass observing your games.

bigzilla,

Sounds like a no-win situation. If your wife is a D-1 ref, maybe she has some connections that can help a little. ?? I'm at a loss.

Z

Yes, it was really long, and that was with me leaving out the weird things he did in the dressing room that had nothing to do with how he treated me, but did result in my hastily departing. As I later described it to a partner, I "was riding shotgun at a p***s inspection."

Yikes!! :eek:

I think I speak for many when I say thank you for leaving that part out.

There's probably a good reason why you didn't go over this! ;)

So maybe this guy pulled all this crap because you let him? Maybe if you had interrupted the pre-game with "That's all good, but can we talk about..." (fill in the rest with whatever you wanted to talk about). Maybe if you had asked the coaches to leave instead of leaving yourself??? I don't know, but it sure seems like this guy walked all over you and you just laid there and let him...best way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to not let it happen again...and if that means getting "in his face" during a time-out, then go for it.

All of us have faced a challenge with an experienced partner at some point. If we haven't, we probably will. The best thing is to keep your mouth shut and do some investigation about your partner. I would ask around about this official and see if he is respected with other officials.

It sounds like the official resented the fact that you were working a playoff game in such a short period of time. I am sure you are qualified according to the people that assigned you the game. This official probably for some reason feels you were not, especially in the condescending way he constructed the pregame. You are just going to have to deal with that for some time until you start working more games that proves your worth. Unfortunately a lot of veterans that have been around for a really long time see younger officials get opportunities that they did not receive and take it out on those officials. That is just the way it is and will always be to some extent. Just bite your tongue and chalk it up to experience.

Peace

I don't know...it's obvious that bigzilla belonged in that game, else he wouldn't have been assigned. It's also obvious that his partner was an a$$...but I think bigzilla could have made the situation better (without being an a$$ himself) simply by asking some questions in the pre-game, by being more assertive on the court during the dead ball conversations, by asking the coaches if they could leave so he could get ready for the game, etc., etc... there are diplomatic ways to deal with partners who are a$$es...

How about finding the other coaches and have them join the coaches pow-wow your partner was conducting.:D

Whether he belongs in the game or not is not my issue. The issue is whether those around him think he belongs there. Whether the official is an @@@ or not is not going to change the fact that he will probably have to deal with this in the future. Most officials will have no problem with him getting the games, but anytime someone gets a premium assignment, there are always someone that thinks someone did not deserve to be there. Wait until the NCAA Tournament and there will be some official here that "player hates" on another official and what they accomplished. It happens in our playoff process and I am sure it happens across the country.

Peace

Agreed Rut...everyone has to deal with it sooner or later. Just seemed like everyone was telling him there was nothing he could do, just "take it like a man", and I wanted to make sure he knew there were things he could have done...probably the same things you've (and I) had to do as you (and I) moved up the ladder...

It is better that he take it than say something and get into a he said, he said situation. If this veteran is really respected people will tend to take his word over the younger official and it might cause undue problems to that official.

I had a run in with a 30+ year veteran with an official. I was working an AAU game that this official was coaching and one of his sons was involved in the game. To make a long story very short, this official was thrown out of the game as a coach of his son's AAU team. My partner was the official that gave this guy both Ts. As the story got around the rumor mill, I was the official that threw out this guy from the game and he did everything he could to ruin me. Well after some investigation I was not the only official that the 30+ year veteran tried to talk down or tried to get them fired out of conferences. His confrontations were so legendary with other officials that everyone I know had a story where this official tried to ban other officials from officiating opportunities. All of these run ins were with officials that officiated his son's teams and he thought they were bad or did not call the game the way it should be called (in his opinion of course). This official happens to assign a few Thanksgiving and X-Mas tournaments which I have never worked, but that just opened me up for other opportunities.

Now if this individual was respected across the board, his feelings toward me might have affected my career. Because this official is basically seen as a very average official and has a history of unprofessional behavior, it is just a funny story that people ask me about. This all happen about 4 years ago this March and I have done nothing but achieve more things since this AAU game way back when. That is why you try to get a history of this individual before you act or say anything.

Peace

In your situation once he started his officiating 101 editorial I would have interrupted him in a polite way by saying, "With all due respect we really need to go over how we're going to call over the back, who's going to toss the jump ball", etc, etc. I would have taken over the conversation, sort of like diffusing him, but in a polite, respectful way. Then I would have gone out and worked my a$$ off calling the best game I can and HUSTLE. If he's a 20 year official, worked 10 state playoffs, etc etc, he knows your qualified to work. I suspect he may have been testing you out and even though you did nothing wrong during the game, it sounds like you gave in somewhat during pre-game. Gotta nip it in the butt right away because if you give some people an inch, they'll take a mile!!
I also would have told the coaches in the room in a polite way that "since (Bill & I) have never worked together we have to go over our routine and get ready so we can call the game correctly. If you would be so kind as to give us a few minutes I'd really appreciate it. Thank you". Your partner may not like being upstaged like that but he'll learn to respect you and if he's a 20+ year guy he'll tell other refs to respect you too. If your partner wants to go over how he's going to call certain situations with coaches let'em go to the bar and they talk all they want.
jmho

Excellent advice, Stick!! I'm mostly with you! I had a similar situation last year in my boys' tournament. It was my 3rd tournament, and I was with a former mentor (if you can believe that!) He hung me out a few times on the court...and we had words after the game. Right after our exchange, a site observer came in and reemed him for what he did to me. I kind of felt justified...but I still didn't like what happened. We are supposed to be a team out there!

I agree with stick for the most part, but you have to know the politics of your area. Even if you take over the pregame and become assertive, you have to make sure you know something about who you are dealing with. I have seen over the years very petty situations turn into big feuds that officials end up hurt by. Especially when your experience is much less than the person you are working with. I have heard some veterans not consider you a "real" veteran until you work 10 years.

Peace

Thanks Indy_ref. It's definitely a no-no to do or say anything to your partner(s) when your on the court in front of everyone. Believe me, I've been there, done that. Keeping your composure is so vital in situations like that. Sometimes you just have to suck it up for what it's worth and move on. Reminding him afterwards in private like you did is fair in my book. If he hung you out to dry he should hear about it. I'm 100% with you there!!

Big Z
 

I doubt if anything like this will happen to you again, but if it does, make you sure you document everything you can and see if you can get a tape(for added insurance). Then as was said earlier, start finding out about this individual from others.
You don't want to put yourself in a bind but you got where you are for a reason(or many as the case may be).
Surely you must have someone "higher up" that has seen you work. Go to them as a friend and not as an assignor or a board member, and just relate the story to them like you are venting and not trying to lodge a formal protest or delete another official. That might be a good way to go about it.
Whatever you do, don't let this experience affect your confidence. That is one of the few things we can use to our advantage out there.
TR

I'm checking in to this thread kinda late, but my opinion is that if I'd walked into a dressing room to find my partner and a head coach from the next game in there together, I'd walk out, find some kind of association official and report it on the spot. And I WOULD NOT work that game, even if it meant never doing another game in that state again. Good grief, doesn't anyone find this immoral or unethical?!?

The whole reason I started thinking about reffing was because of a tournament game where my daughter's team was cheated out of their fair chance by collusion between a crooked pair of officials and a head coach. I can't imagine even standing by and letting that happen.

Juulie,

Just because you saw the guys talking?

I realize the first thought might not be the best thing on your mind, but there could be other explanations. I know that often times the officials where I live are put in everyone from a locker room to a coach's office. It is not totally uncommon to see a coach in the official's dressing area for a short period of time.

Peace

Your right, in some cases the who's who of officials and politics do play a role. That's why I'm respectful, polite but firm in my tone. Permit me to be a bit more specific in adding to my response to the original post. I would ask him how we should handle all the various situations during the pre-game. I may say something like: "Since you have more experience then I do I'd like for you to share your expertise with me. I was taught to do (blah blah blah) this way. Do you think that's right or is there a better way that you know?" Option questions like that show him your interested in learning to be a better ref which should ease the situation. Being in sales I know first hand clients love to talk about themselves and will be less guarded towards salespeople when they do. Same thing here. If the guy still wants nothing to do with you--then he's a jack-a$$.

I agree with this - often times we are put into the coach's office and once in a while the coach for the game I'm working will wander in and out. Sometimes the coach will engage in harmless greetings. It's especially bad when I'm telling my partner about something bad that happened the last time I had this team and the coach walks in bahind me. :eek:

stick,

I do not disagree with you stick. I just wanted to make the point you have to be aware of your surroundings before you speak. If you are having a one on one conversation, the younger official might be the one that loses.

Peace

I agree and I hope you didn't get the idea I was disagreeing with you. Being in a similar situation when I first started out. I learned right away to go with the flow. After a while I learned to stand up for myself because they'll walk all over you if you don't.

It sounded as though the whole tone of the meeting between the partner and the coaches was collaborative, and that it went on quite a while. That's a whole different thing from, "congrats on making it to state" "there are some towels in this one" and "have a great game." Besides, it keeps the refs from working together, and that's also not acceptable. Besides, as someone else said, what if the opposing coach walks in and sees this cozy little huddle, and I'm there even just passively observing, it's MY integrity that suffers. I'm not giving that up for anyone.

Maybe im missing something here, but are officials and coaches supposed to be enemies? (though it may seem like it at times) I dont see a big deal chatting with the coaches before a game, or after for that matter. Now on the same point I dont expect you to be talking strategy with the coach, but we are just people doing our jobs and in this case it happens to be in the same workplace, im not sure that communication is a bad thing. Now also to be said, im not going to leave my partner out of the conversation either. just a thought. . . .

I just wanted to make a point to add to the discussion. We are pretty much on the same page. :D

Peace

No, there isn't anything wrong about chatting with a coach. However, it isn't right to be talking to a coach about an opponent they might not ever see if they don't win the game you are officiating and it isn't right to do this instead of having a pregame with your partner.

I'm in a situation right now where I don't know most guys. I don't have confrontations because they aren't a good thing. I feel awkward when I'm the R on the game and someone who has been here for years is with me. It is especially bad when it is one of those games that some guys would cut their arms off for (I've been really blessed since I got here). I just try to make it a cooperative thing. I try to do that no matter what because a comfortable crew will be a better crew. BUT, the bad side in me wouldn't mind putting someone like this on blast so he couldn't lie later. I'm sure there would be a way to add some sort of witnesses. :D

I agree, the topics discussed were probably inappropriate, and of course I would not want to take away from any pregame from my partner, but at the same time we dont have to be a-holes and not ever talk to people either. Your point is well taken though

Totally understood and I agree with that completely. It would be very uncomfortable to experience that sort of thing. Speaking of...I get to work with JA Jr. again this weekend at an 8th grade girl's tourney. How much you wanna bet he talks to everyone in the stands before the games?

Sheez, what did you do to make Howard mad!?! :D It's still not as bad as.. well, I won't mention any names, but I can think of worse partners...

Welcome to the BIG TIME rainmaker...oh wait...you probably haven't done a playoff game yet.
Hmmmmmmm, think about it rainmaker...you're not ready (mentally)
Sorry for coming off "Big Time"...but sheesh, relax.
You wouldn't really storm out of the locker room and go get some official would you?
That has got to be the funniest thing I have read all night.
Maybe go so far has to try to "Big Time" the big-timer in front of coaches...but I gotta tell ya...that's not a move that people I know made, working their way up.
This guy has 20+ years...state championship games...are you kidding me? Give it some time before you take on the world.
Be firm...but wait your turn.
Hey...I just made that up...give me another beer. ;)

RookieDude -- I'm saying that if I discover that a game I'm assigned to is going to be called on the basis of agreements between one coach and a ref, I'm not doing it period. I wouldn't have anything to do with it. If that means I never get higher than 6th grade girls again, well, fine. If that's how this state wants to run their tournament, I'm outta there. It is unprofessional and unethical to sit down and agree how a game is going to be called with coaches from only one of the teams. I could not allow my integrity to be compromised in this way. If you don't have a problem with working that way, that's your business, but I have lost a lot of respect for you.

Now you're saying "if that's how this state wants to run their tournament, I'm outta there."
You just jumped from an isolated incident...to the whole damn "state".
Again, take a deep breath...relax.
It's no great news that there are big A$$ holes out there in referee land. Remember the sysem we work in. One man's *** is another man's friend. Argggggggg...
...Bartender...tab please!!! ;)

I'm a little baffled by your hostility. What in the world has you so upset?

I should make it clear that he wasn't fixing the game. Basically, it was a ref who was there to call the game between A and B, and was discussing how A's coaches how they would match up with C, who they only played if they beat B. The coaches, to me, were basically buttering him up with comments about how great he had been in their game the night before. To me, that looks bad.

As to why I didn't just have it out with him at first, the pregame came to an abrupt and unusual end, which is sort of described in my second post on page 1 of this thread, and which certain viewers had an appreciation for no more details than given! Rest assured that it was more bizarre than described in that post, and one of my partners often requests that I describe it in detail to other parnters, just to hear the howls.

Hostility?
Just giving my opinion with a little "conviction". :)
Again, Relax...
you're not the only one I'm picking on tonight. ;)

So, why pick on anyone? I don't get your point...

So Rookie, you seriously don't have a problem with a ref and one coach from the next game having a private conference about what's going to happen next?

So a private conversation all of the sudden becomes a plot to fix the game? Whered that assumption come from? How many here have fixed a game after talking to a coach before a game, raise your hands. . . . I didnt think so. . .


Plus most officials should be aware, a coach who compliments you before the game might be sincere, but alot of compliments means hes probably fishing for a call later that night. I would hope most would realize that and not let it affect how things are called.

[Edited by paxsonref on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 09:45 AM]

Paxon -- This conversation went on and on and on, and it was based on the assumption that the one coach would win the next game which that ref was working. I'm not saying it was a conscious plot, but it was unethical and unprofessional. It was carried on in secret, and interfered with the ability of the refs to be a good team and give the players the refs' best game. In Oregon, if I walked in on that situation, I would go find an state tournament official such as the commissioner or assignor, and report it. And I would refuse to work that game with that ref. I know that the OSAA would not approve of this situation, and would put a stop to it. The integrity of the whole crew is compromised by this situation. If this ref who was conferring with this coach is such a high official in that state that everyone kowtows to him and thinks whatever he does is just fine, I would not want to work in that state. He is not a credit to the reffing community, and anyone who lets him act this way is no credit, either.

You certainly drove that point home... :rolleyes:

Is it possible that some of these veteran officials might know some of these coaches? Maybe even be friends with them off the court? Maybe get a round of golf in together in the summer? A conversation about who they MIGHT play IF they win is stupid, arrogant, conceited, but unethical? Did you hear the official respond by saying "when you win tonight. . . . because im going to give you all the calls. . . .etc. . . " If a coach started a conversation like this with me, I'd probably remind him "Youve still got one to play tonight coach" and leave it at that. If you had "walked in" on a situation like this, how do you know where the conversation started, who brought it up, or what was said prior to you arriving? I think its pretty unfair to assume that all or any official is crooked or is doing something against the fairness of the game. I would expect the simple fact that they are an official should give them the integrity not to let stupid conversations like that affect them, and to not even let friendships affect how they call the game. I dont care if my best man was coaching a team that I had a game for, he isnt getting one damn call because of what he said before or during the game, and he surely isnt getting anything because we happen to be friends. Maybe thats too big of an assumption to make for everyone, but the people I know and I work with wouldnt let their integrity be compromised my a coach or anyone else for that matter. Im just confused at why you are so passionate about condeming the whole state for an incident like this? Why the hostility?

I don't care if it's my partner's brother-in-law, that time in the dressing area is not the time to be chatting it up with one of the coaches for tonight's game. It puts me in a very uncomfortable situation and it definitely damages the integrity of my partner. If they are good friends or whatever, there'll be plenty of time after the game someplace else to catch up and talk about old times. Not at the gym before the game. Not in my dressing room. It's just not right.

I've interrupted a couple of these sessions
 

I've had a few instances where a partner was having a long conversation about today's game or the season with a coach without the other coach present.

In each instance I have gently interrupted and said something to encourage the coach to move on. Each time it has worked and then I've followed up with a statement to my partner that "it might not be a good idea to . . . ", and "it may seem to others that you are favoring one coach". Just gently telling them to not do that, at least when I'm around.

Now this guy you were dealing with may have been such an @** that he wouldn't have listened to you anyway. Really not much you can do but get the game(s) over.

Ok...
Around these parts 50% of our ratings come from coaches.
Right or wrong...that's the way it is. Now...you want to be aloof...be my guest...put in my experiences...the guy that can communicate with a coach (on or off the court) is the guy that is gonna get his games.
You think that is cheating? Unethical?
Well...
when you do a game with me...show me anywhere at any point in the game where you think I cheated...remember I had a brief conversation with the coach.
You are correct...the impression of coaches and officials having long coversations is of concern.
We are talking about coversations in the locker room...out of the public's eye.
Where I come from...some of the time we dress in the Home Team's Locker room. Some of the time a coach runs into us as he is going to an ajacent room...we have a brief exchange...and that's it.
Just be cordial.
Your working relationship with the Coach will begin soon enough. ;)

Kinda what they tell you at the pet store when you take home that brand new puppy:

"Give him some water with a little food when you get home. The paper training will begin about 20 minutes later."

:)

Beautiful! :)

Second that, and move to Pass!!!! :D

Kenny

I never will do a game with you. It simply wouldn't happen.

Kinda late to this thread.

1. I can't believe a "big time official" would treat his partner as described. Simply no excuse.

2. It's inappropriate for the Coaches to be in the locker room. I've changed in many a coaches office and they rarely if ever came in there. If they did they were in and out quickly.

3. It's inappropriate to give scouting reports to Coache's at any time which this official seemed to be doing. I'm with Rainmaker on this if I saw this going on I would suddenly come down with a mysterious illness or injury that would prevent me from doing that game.

4. I've never had a Coach compliment me before a game. After a (usually they won) game sure but never before.

I'm thankful that in my neck of the woods that assignment chairman assign games for the various conferences and not the Coaches or AD's. Limits the number of people "you have to suck up to" LOL.

Thanks, Gordon. I appreciate your agreement.

Any interaction with a coach before a game that lasts more then 30 seconds to 1 minute, better have BOTH coaches present. Anything else is unprofessional and inappropriate, even if it is not unethical, it gives the impression of bias.

Being professional and cordial, is a far cry from kissing a coaches behind for a better rating. No matter how chummy you are, the game is what that coach is gonna rate you on anyway.

That is so over dramatic. Give me a break. So if you are talking to a coach about his scorebook, is that an unprofessional conversation?

I realize that talking to a coach is not the best thing before a game, but all circumstances are not as simple as many of you are trying to make this.

Peace

Then I guess that would be my loss...for not getting to experience officiating with someone with different philosophies and high standards. :)

Agree.

Fwiw, for play-off games in our area, we ask the hosting venues to supply a seperate room for the officials only, and also ensure that the officials will have complete privacy in that room. We instruct all of our officials to answer all pre-game questions from coaches,etc. cordially, but to absolutely never carry on any extended pre-game discussions or conversations with any of the participants. Answer their questions and then cut the conversation short. The officials need that pre-game time to get prepared for the game, and they don't need any outside distractions. Carrying on a pre-game conversation like the one that was outlined in the first post of this thread in lieu of a proper pregame is also unprofessional as hell imo. It can certainly give an impression of impropriety, and impressions can become realities in some of the petty non-officiating minds if they happen to witness little <i>tete-a tetes</i> like that one.

That is horrible (they way he treated you and acted on the court). Unacceptable. It's too bad that some of these "veterans," can get so high up and go so far despite their attitudes towards others and their detriment to the game.

Well put!

So when he says it, it's well put, but when I say it, it's baloney? You are too....

I mentioned the word cordial...
JR mentioned the word cordial.
I said watch for the impression...
JR mentioned the word impression.

Since you want to keep this alive...
you said you would go get an official and turn the guy in for crying out loud.
No where did I see where JR said he would turn the guy in...if he would do that...then I would think the same thing about him as I would any other tattle tale.

Okay, my friends told me that I had misunderstood Gordon a few weeks ago, and that I needed to be more careful in reading. I'll give you the same benefit of the doubt here.

Are you saying that if you walked into your dressing room before a game, and you saw the coach who would be coaching your game, and your partner, talking for 15 or 20 minutes about strategy, scouting, match-ups and so on, you would say to yourself, "Man, this is really unprofessional. I can't believe they're doing this. This really gives the wrong impression. But, oh well, it's none of my business..." and just go change in the other room, and hope you didn't interrupt them? That's what it sounds like to me, but I want to be sure that's what you are really saying before I go off on you.

I could not agree more with what was said here.It does not only happen in playoff situations, but it happens. I grow tired of calling with old veterans that do not want to listen, let alone hustle. There are many things that younger officals need to learn, butthe older guys feel like thier territory is being infringed upon. Face it some of these guys need to get out, no matter how connected they are. Though there are times where referees are so short you will throw any piece of s hit on the court to cover a game.....


Rhino

Your killing me rainmaker.
Yes, the ol' boy was unprofessional.
Yes, it gives a bad impression.
Yes, the official should not be doing a scouting report.
Yes, it is none of my business if he wants to be a jerk.
No, I am not going to run to an "official" and tell them about all this perceived cheating.

This is the playoffs...we officiate in other association's regions. We can't always know the politics of that region.
We can't go in their house and start cleaning it up.

Listen, mick says..."Get in, Get done, and Get out".

What do you think that means?

You are going to see some things you don't always agree with in this advocation. Show your peers you have ethics...be professional...know your rules...know your mechanics...but, watch out who you signal out as a cheat.
I have been officiating for over 16 years...and I can honestly say I have never seen or heard of an official cheating for another team.

If you have a problem with a coach talking excessively to your partner...there have been some very good suggestions on how to handle it. I know one thing...I wouldn't run to another locker room...I would run the coach out (albeit diplomatically) :)

With no comments from Mr./Ms. Spelling,Grammer,Punctuation Person!

unbelievable.

Okay, you stick to your so-called ethics, I'll stick to mine. Just please don't call me names because you are willing to compromise and I'm not. If that's how they want to run their district or league or wherever I'm "visiting" I don't want to participate. Yes, I'd tell and no I wouldn't do the game. It's not because I'm a whiner or "tattletale", it'sb ecause of my integrity. It's that very integrity that hopes I never meet you, becuase I don't believe in calling you names either, but I'm having a rough time keeping them inside. Thank goodness you aren't doing the girls' tournament. I won't have to risk running into you.

And, by the way, there's no "d" in avocation.

I've worked with many a grizzled veteran in my time. In all my years I've never had one act toward me in a condesending manner, yes they talk to Coache's and Ad's a little too much but it's never been about the game that we're working and they never give scouting reports usually it's small talk. Yes they sometimes get lazy in terms of mechanics, perhaps not switching for example but generally it's stuff that only other officials would notice. I've never had one carry on with a Coach like that in a locker room. If this occurred during a State Tournament I would not do the game. I agree with Rainmaker on this.

I would agree with both you guys on this. I've been there, done that when I first started out. All one can do in this situation is work the game to the best of your ability doing the proper mechanics. After the final horn, GET OUT ASAP!! Don't shower, just leave. Then I'd contact the assigner and simply say that I never want to work with him again. In the final analysis, chalk it up as an experience and move on.

Translation
 

Working with a 6th yr officical last night. I am a 1st year ref. Before the Jv game he is doing the gladhanding -selling cars routine-investment opportunitys or whatever it was with both coaches. Comes over to me at 28 foot area and lets me know. Him and these coaches go a long way back and we will have no problems with them tonight. What he really meant to say was you are own tonight. And low and behold they didn't let up on me for a second. The best example . Press is on I am in back court covering the play in front of V bench V coach wants TO i blow whistle and and give TO . At same time something breaks out in the lane in front of H bench. Partner didn't see anything. ok i sure as heck didn't either. The whole TO the H coach is yelling at me for not calling a intential flag. foul. My partner who is now selling cars or investment oppurtunitys to The Varsity Refs who are now standing along the baseline. So I get to TEE up the coach -still no partner-his presentation must have ran over-he finally realized something was up when the horn blew and me and the shooter went to shoot free throws. i am glad we don't have to hustle the coaches/AD for work. i am not a very good politican.

Chess,

It is very typical that a more experienced official is left alone by the coaches while the "rookie" is harassed or given the most grief. That is part of the territory. An official does not always know how a coach is going to react to them. You cannot blame the official for his comments. He probably thought that the coaches would not say anything or much of anything as a result of his knowledge of the coaches. As a veteran there are places I can go and the coaches will leave me completely alone. I can go other places and I am not known and I am the bad guy that night. Usually this game is called "Good cop, bad cop." The coach was probably telling him to help you out and acting like his calls were great most of the night. Then the coaches treated all your calls as a complete joke in their mind. This is a very common practice. It is not your partner's fault they treated you that way.

Peace

It is his partners fault to ALLOW coaches to treat his partner that way.

The officials are a TEAM and I'm NEVER going to allow a coach to play divide and conquer with me and my less experienced partner.

If they test this partner and cross the line and my partner, based on their inexperience, does not know how to handle it, I'm sureashell going to HANDLE IT.

JRUT
 

okay. Your thread makes sense and I can live with that. On a personal level The glad-handing aspect is just something I don't like and even more so because i will end up being the bad cop for the night. It just seems unprofessional.

You seemed to be running with this example and adding stuff to it. ChessRef just stated that the coaches got on him. What can a partner do when the complaints are not out of hand or beyond what are normally acceptable? I know if a coach is on my partner I can say something, but I cannot stop him from having complaints about calls. Nor is it my job to hold my partner's hand the entire game.

Peace

Re: JRUT
 

I do not know what you mean by glad-handing, I was not there. I am just stating that officials and coaches are not supposed to be enemies. Over the years I have seen coaches grow up in the game just like I have. Coaches tend to greet officials they know and say hi and many times talk to them about things they might have some knowledge about. I have a friend that is working a playoff game later this season and both coaches actually coached his daughter at the same program. It just happens to be that both coaches have moved to different programs and by happenstance he will see both coaches in one of his games. It is not going to surprise me if the coaches acknowledge this official and how they know him. If you do this long enough you will find some coaches that will grow to the higher levels at the same rate that you will. So if this is your first year, it might be in 5 to 6 years you run into some coaches that will be working varsity when you are. Not all of them are going to be at the same schools. Some will get a shot at another school and you will work their games. You will have some relationship with them on some level. It is not totally unavoidable to find coaches that will get to know you. It is just how you conduct those relationships.

Peace

Where in the rule book does it say the coach can complain about calls?

It is the more experienced officials job to help their partner through it. You give them some advice, you give them a chance to handle the situation, and if that fails you lead by EXAMPLE and handle it yourself.

It's called mentoring.

Do you really want to go there? The rulebook says a lot of things and as officials we do not penalize every situation because it says so in the rulebook. I hope there is more to this discussion than whether the rulebook states something about complaining or not.


It is the experienced official’s job to help, not do it for them. If I had officials always getting coaches off my back, I would never have learned to do it myself. We also do not know about what was said and what was not said. I agree that an experienced official can protect a younger official to some extent, but they cannot stop all comments or even know when that situation is taking place. Coaches can make comments without yelling all over the court.

Peace

Re: Translation
 

Welcome to the world of officiating!! I've had similar experiences that you had. Like I stated in an earlier post I learned to stand up for myself to coaches but in a respectful way. If you work hard, hustle and exercise proper mechanics they can only argue with you so much. Most coaches that give refs heat are just frustrated for one reason or another--usually because their team is losing or he's just trying to get favorable calls for later. If he's a good coach it's usually not personal but if refs take it personal they shouldn't be officiating. JMHO

The thrust of my post was about my partner. I am learning to deal with the coaches. Alot of the techniques I am using I got from threads on this board. i don't think it is unreasonable for my partner to be aware of whats going on with the game, instead of selling insurance or whatever he was up to talking to the Varsity Refs down at the endline. i still am thinking by being a gladhander (one who spends too much time talking to coaches, fans etc.), the bad newby then receives a disproportinate amount of vrying about the calls. My example from last night -the train wreck happened in partners area-i am watching a press sitch then administering a TO but the coach lays into me . Now why would that have happened ? I feel pretty sure it had NOTHING to do with my partners pregame Oprah like therapy session with the coaches and everything to do with my being on the other side of the court watching what I was suppose to watch and call. Note Sarcasm. The capper was it happened in front of the H teams bench.. He had to wait for me to get to reporting area (the TO) to start yelling at me. But I am reassurred that my partners history with the two coaches had nothing to with it. ( Note Sarcasm)
i can accept what Jrut said about bad ref/good ref but that doesn't mean I like it or agree with it.

Chess ref,

You said this is your first year. If you don't learn to get past these game situations in a way you're comfortable with then you won't have many years ahead of you. It's not your partner's fault the coaches were gunning for you. It's the way the world works. If they were on you the whole game then *you* let it happen. Stick 'em early & often, no warning. If you stick around you'll get a reputation for taking care of business and they'll leave you alone. If they don't just keep stickin' 'em.

As for pregame BS'ing with coaches, I don't do it except quick pleasantries. Once in a while I'll have a partner who does it to excess, I just go to the other side of the floor. If they're doing it in the locker room before the game I give them a few minutes then politely tell the coach to beat it, we need to prepare. No big deal.

Hey Chess,

It was wrong for your partner to allow you to be abused like that. Being new you have to learn how to handle this. Here's an example from baseball how I helped my partner. His first varsity game he's got the dish. One of the Coache's is on how for much of the game. Everytime this happened I was hoping he would dump him. He never did and I can understand why. First time the Coach said anything to me I restricted him to the dugout. When he asked why I simply said I'm tired of listening to you. No problems from than after. Your partner could have found a way to help you out.

When your're working with a new guy don't let this happen to him/her.

Sounds real nice of your partner for hanging you out to dry eh? Unfortunately sh!t happens and at the time there wasn't much you could do about it. You called the game the way you saw it and he sh!t the bed--and one day he'll lay in it. I had something similar a few years ago. BV game for first place. I'm working with a guy so fat (25+ year official) that the gym shakes when he tries to run. He's blowing his whistle on every play--even in my area. He even blew his whistle on the jump ball--and he tossed!! Both coaches are wondering whats going on--both to me and him--they just want to play ball. After each team being in double bonus early in the 2nd quarter, I casually mentioned something to him and he agreed. Didn't change much. At halftime, after 1 1/2 hour first half, I let loose at him. I said in these words very loudly, "don't make any m***** f*(**** calls unless it's an obvious one. He was so shook up he swallowed his whistle. The second half went smooth--lot of the typical riff-raff but nothing out of the ordinary. Haven't seen the guy since.