BMS game. I'm L and the ball is on the far side within the arc so I slide to the lane and am about 4' off from the end line. A1 passes into the lane to A2 whom turns and goes for an easy bucket directly in front of me and right underneath the goal.

To me it looked as if A2 jumped towards the goal like he was going for a lay-up. As he makes his successful try, I can hear the coach and crowd yelling about something and it dawns on me A2 was pushed from behind and directly toewards me - but I never actually saw the *push* - as I was straightlined. (I did learn from this so no work on your mechanics stuff!) :)

Coach was upset about it and rightfully so. So I spoke to him right afterwards since I was now trailing on his side going the other way. Before he could make any comments I said, "Sorry coach I missed the push. I thought he jumped forward and I was straightlined." He said I needed to be watching that and was perturbed but did let it go and nothing further happened during the game.

It's a dangerous play/foul and protecting the shooter while in the air and vulnerable is my main concern. Does anybody hit their whistle on the coach/crowd noise when you realized something was going on and had an idea of what it was but didn't actually "see" it?

I've never called something I didn't actually see with my own eye's in any sport.

I also had a recent PC charge a coach told me I had missed as the T when it had occurred on the end line in the paint. From where I stood I couldn't tell if the B player was set or not. B hit the floor but I know there was very little contact between A & B.

To me this was in the primary of the L and he didn't make the call. Either way, I did not see either play well enough to make a call. Am I correct here by not making a call in either case?

I'd rather miss something than make something up that I didn't see, even if 300 other people saw it. You miss it, you take your lumps, and work harder next time so hopefully it won't happen.

Seeing is believing.....

hey Mike hows things up north?? If the kid didn't lurch enough for you to "see" that there had been contact, and he made the layup, there was probably very little advantage gained...I say you did fine...you already mentioned the mechanics thing, but this is a great example of a 3 man being a better system, however at the MS level we won't see it here for a while LOL...

No, don't blow your whistle based on the reaction of the fans/coaches/players.

Your partner should have been in position to help you on this play, since the play, A1's pass, started in their primary.

Pregame this type of thing, because with 2 officials, trail NEEDS to be aggressive.

Oh, and stay out of the paint.:D

Don't guess. Work to get a better angle next time.

Z

I try never to call anything I didn't see, even if I *think* something happened. About the only call I'll make without actually seeing it is if someone takes a big slap at the ball but I can't actually see the contact. It's usually pretty easy to differentiate the sound of slapping leather vs. slapping skin.

Hand is part of the ball.

Hand is made of skin.

Defenders have been know to slap their hands together to distract the shooter.

Defender could swing and hit their own leg, or another defender.

We are not bats, we should NEVER make a call based on sound.

still be cautious on slapping skin, hand in contact w/ ball is part of the ball, slap there is fair game. Also have seen others close by slap own hands, simulating slap by defender on ball handler...
Better to call what you see not what you hear.

Sorry BZ we were typing the response at the same time, didn't want to step on your toes.

You just contradicted yourself. If you don't see it, don't call it. Simple as that. When I was a newer ref and more easily intimidated by my surroundings and lack of experience, I would once in a while call what I thought happened, but didn't really see. Trust me, it gets you into more trouble than just not calling anything. You can't explain what you "saw" if anyone asks because you didn't really see anything. Once I got comfortable and my confidence kicked in, I am now able to tell a coach flat out "I didn't see it" and that's usually that. I have no problem with it - it just makes me work harder to eliminate those types of situations. Experience is everything in what we do. And experience takes a lot of time and effort. Allow yourself the time to grow and learn.

Ok, what is the rule reference that supports the hand is part of the ball? I just had this discussion with another ref. and would like to have the rule reference.

10-6-1, He/she shall not contact the opponent with his/her hand UNLESS SUCH CONTACT IS ONLY WITH THE OPPONENT'S HAND WHILE IT IS IN CONTACT WITH THE BALL AND IS INCIDENTAL TO AN ATTEMPT TO PLAY THE BALL.

Big, big mistake. Never call anything by sound, especially something that could quite possibly be a legal play.

A1 raises her arms with the ball in an atempt to shoot. You see defender's arm come down in front to the shooter to slap the ball. sound or no sound, the ball goes up and the shooter's arms go down. You know there is contact on the arms, but you didn't see it. What is the call/no call?

You know there is contact how? You would be quessing. That is why we have secondary whistles.:)

How do I know? Common sense.

That one's being taught now in some D1 camps, I understand.
Ball goes down----> legal check
Ball goes up------> foul

PLEASE remember, everyone - the hand is NOT part of the ball! For any purpose!

As previously posted, incidental contact that's related to trying to play the ball is not deemed a foul. A player/shooter can still be fouled "on the hand" if the contact is severe enough.

Wrong, Mark.

The rule is already in this thread, severity plays no part on the call per rule.

[Edited by blindzebra on Feb 1st, 2005 at 05:25 PM]

It is posted earlier but Mark is correct. It says "incidental" contact is allowed. Contact with the hand that causes a player to loose control of the ball isn't incidental; it has a large impact on play.

No, it says CONTACT INCIDENTAL TO PLAYING THE BALL, not incidental contact. That means hitting the hand while in contact with the ball is like hitting the ball.

How can it be incidental if it causes the offense to loose control of the ball or be unable to release a shot/pass? Under 4-27 (Incidental Contact):

"ART.2...Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.
ART.3...Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental."

So it is correct to say that the severity doesn't come into play but I don't see how it can be argued that it wouldn't "hinder the opponent from participating in normal ... offensive movements."

Once again it is NOT INCIDENTAL CONTACT. Read the rule it says contact incidental to playing the ball. That means contact on the hand which is on the ball is NOT a foul. It does not matter if the ball is knocked loose or the offensive players hand gets broken, it is the same as hitting the ball.

This is absolutely correct. I've even had my hand broken by such a play and it was not a foul...it sure hurt though.

No foul for hitting the hand when it is on the ball while holding, passing, shooting, or dribbling.