Delayed Whistle

[eventnyc]

Last night in a BV Game, I really had a patient (no late) whistle. I was in the lead position and I saw some minor contact on the shooter. He had released the ball on a short shot, three footer. My arm and fist had gone up in the air instinctively, however, no whistle. Don't ask, I don't know why. This is the first time this has happened to me in seven years of officiating. I can tell you this. The shot seemed to be up there forever. I closed down on the player and took a peak up at the rim (also something I never do). The ball bounced twice on the rim and came off without going in. I blew my whistle and made the call.

Analysis: I was unsure about the call. The contact was minor and it may have effected the shot. What I can't tell you is what my reaction would have been if the basket was scored. Hopefully, I would have still blown that "late" whistle. BTW, the coaches did not react to the whistle. It was probably only a second or two late, however, something that was out of the norm to me. With the arm up in the air, I'm sure the coach would have had a fit, had I not blown the whistle. Rightfully so!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by eventnyc
Last night in a BV Game, I really had a patient (no late) whistle. I was in the lead position and I saw some minor contact on the shooter. He had released the ball on a short shot, three footer. My arm and fist had gone up in the air instinctively, however, no whistle. Don't ask, I don't know why. This is the first time this has happened to me in seven years of officiating. I can tell you this. The shot seemed to be up there forever. I closed down on the player and took a peak up at the rim (also something I never do). The ball bounced twice on the rim and came off without going in. I blew my whistle and made the call.

Analysis: I was unsure about the call. The contact was minor and it may have effected the shot. What I can't tell you is what my reaction would have been if the basket was scored. Hopefully, I would have still blown that "late" whistle. BTW, the coaches did not react to the whistle. It was probably only a second or two late, however, something that was out of the norm to me. With the arm up in the air, I'm sure the coach would have had a fit, had I not blown the whistle. Rightfully so!

With your patient whistle needs to come a patient fist!

[eventnyc]

[/B][/QUOTE]

With your patient whistle needs to come a patient fist! [/B][/QUOTE]

Juulie, believe me, I know! I don't know what came over me. I was actually debating (in milliseconds) wether or not to pull it back down. It would have been a bad move to do so.

[lrpalmer3]

Couple comments:

5 or 6 noticeable delayed whistles per game sounds pretty high.

I've also heard that college coordinators hate the "and one" call.

They (all the cool kids) say that the time it takes to judge the effect of a foul decreases and decreases with more experience, and that's why you MIGHT have ONE noticeably late whistle in a college game on TV.

[Leggs45]

A patient whistle is good... sometimes.

If you have a "bang-bang" play you have to sell it. You have to show confidence by having a loud whistle with strong mechanics almost immediately.

From coaches and fans perspectives, a patient whistle does seem like an indecisive whistle. But to the trained official, I hope we all agree that if the contact does not have an affect on the play we should not call a foul (otherwise, we would be calling fouls everytime there was contact on the court).

When coaches have said that my call was late, I've replied "It was the right call".

[Nu1]

"I believe my partner got blocked out and needed help coach"


I don't think I would use this response, or one like it. Maybe in the heat of the moment I would, but I hope not. If I (a) make a call or (b) don't make a call, I most often say something like (a) "That's the way I saw it" or (b) "That's not the way I saw it"

I just think saying your partner got blocked out is open to too much negative interpretation. Sure, your partner could have been blocked out due to no fault of their own...but someone could also easily infer that your partner was blocked out because they weren't where they should have been. (This is an area I'm really working on for myself. Having good angles and hustling to see the play.) I sure wouldn't want my partner telling a coach they needed to help me because I was blocked out...even if they did because I was.

[Nevadaref]

I'm going to take this opportunity to give those here on the forum a little info on the original poster for this thread. Almost Always Right is a personal friend of mine and we have worked quite a few games together as we are in the same local association.
He has an impressive officiating resume.
He is one of our current board members, worked the 4A Boys State Final last season, the 4A Boys Regional Final the year before that, was voted the #1 official in our association by his peers this year, will certainly work both the Regional and State tournaments again this year, and can FLAT OUT officiate.

So, although he is new to this forum and sounds somewhat less than stellar in this particular post, don't be fooled. He does know what he is doing on the court.

He is also quite genuine in the questions that he asks and the answers that he provides.
He is definitely someone who should be taken seriously when it comes to HS basketball officiating.

I was thrilled to see him join this forum!

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I'm going to take this opportunity to give those here on the forum a little info on the original poster for this thread. Almost Always Right is a personal friend of mine and we have worked quite a few games together as we are in the same local association.
He has an impressive officiating resume.
He is one of our current board members, worked the 4A Boys State Final last season, the 4A Boys Regional Final the year before that, was voted the #1 official in our association by his peers this year, will certainly work both the Regional and State tournaments again this year, and can FLAT OUT officiate.

So, although he is new to this forum and sounds somewhat less than stellar in this particular post, don't be fooled. He does know what he is doing on the court.

He is also quite genuine in the questions that he asks and the answers that he provides.
He is definitely someone who should be taken seriously when it comes to HS basketball officiating.

I was thrilled to see him join this forum!

His extra-patient whistle can run with me anytime...but he has to move to Indiana!

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I'm going to take this opportunity to give those here on the forum a little info on the original poster for this thread. Almost Always Right is a personal friend of mine and we have worked quite a few games together as we are in the same local association.
He has an impressive officiating resume.
He is one of our current board members, worked the 4A Boys State Final last season, the 4A Boys Regional Final the year before that, was voted the #1 official in our association by his peers this year, will certainly work both the Regional and State tournaments again this year, and can FLAT OUT officiate.

So, although he is new to this forum and sounds somewhat less than stellar in this particular post, don't be fooled. He does know what he is doing on the court.

He is also quite genuine in the questions that he asks and the answers that he provides.
He is definitely someone who should be taken seriously when it comes to HS basketball officiating.

I was thrilled to see him join this forum!

I worked the boys 3A state championship with him the year before last. He can go. He is basically a college ref that lives someplace without many college opportunities. I also heard Nevadaref is doing really good too.

P.S. Indy_ref, I have a second cousin named Dominique James from Richmond IN. Have you heard of him? I think he is going to Marquette. It is probably hard to win Mr. Basketball with Oden and McRoberts there.

[Almost Always Right]

tomegun and Nevadaref always see the best in people.
While I appreciate their comments, I am on here to bring up some things that I question in myself and maybe colleagues around me won't be completely honest for whatever the reason.
I knew I would get some good feedback from this forum on this issue. That, " . . .my partner got blocked out . . ." line doesn't look very good on paper, but I say it with a great deal of charm! ;-p

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
His extra-patient whistle can run with me anytime...but he has to move to Indiana!

Oddly enough, he came from Indiana!

[ReadyToRef]

Almost Always Right...

My 2 cents:

Down here (in GA) they say often: "A late whistle is a great whistle."

One of the college assignors I work for NEVER and he means NEVER wants an "and 1". The only way you can avoid that is with a patient whistle.

The high school association I am a member of is loaded with college officials. Our assignor here is preaching the "patient whistle" to see if the shot goes in. After patient whistles, I have been asked if I was waiting to see if the shot was going to go. My answer "Of course."

I am no expert but in my neck of the woods, you seem to be doing it just as my assignors want it done.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by ReadyToRef
Almost Always Right...

My 2 cents:

Down here (in GA) they say often: "A late whistle is a great whistle."

One of the college assignors I work for NEVER and he means NEVER wants an "and 1". The only way you can avoid that is with a patient whistle.

The high school association I am a member of is loaded with college officials. Our assignor here is preaching the "patient whistle" to see if the shot goes in. After patient whistles, I have been asked if I was waiting to see if the shot was going to go. My answer "Of course."

I am no expert but in my neck of the woods, you seem to be doing it just as my assignors want it done.

I know a COLLEGE assignor that hates "and 1's" too. For the college game, maybe the players are strong enough and can handle contact enough for that to be appropriate.

At a high school game though, judging a shooting foul by whether or not the shot goes in as asking for trouble, IMHO. Your just setting kids (and I emphasize kids ) up for frustration and possible problems if you are allowing significant contact to be ignored just because the ball goes through the basket.

Z

[Rich]

Originally posted by zebraman

Welcome to the forum.

I love a patient whistle. I'm ok with a real delayed whistle once in a while, especially when it's a "gotta go get it" call in someone's secondary coverage area.

For a high school game, I'm not real thrilled about a whistle that is so late that it's obvious that the official was waiting to see if the hoop went in or not. I know a college assignor around here that hates "and ones," but I don't think that's appropriate for an NFHS game. Just my opinion.

Z

It's a good patient whistle, IMO, when you are trying to determine whether some contact put the person receiving the contact at a disadvantage. Perfect example would be a bump in the back on a rebound -- if the player clears the ball pass on the call unless it's a major BUMP, but get the call if it puts the rebounder at a disadvantage or off-balance, etc.

I think the OP is taking this philosophy too far. Not calling fouls near the hoop when the ball goes in and/or on successful drives tells the defense that they can afford to play somewhat reckless -- if it goes in, no harm, no foul. If it doesn't go in, then the foul was "successful."

I will agree that there are times when the contact is so close to the ball being laid in that I will pass on the foul as the whistle would have to come after the ball went through the hoop -- but that only seems to happen a lot in boys games where the players are really agressive and are able to get up at or above the rim.