Need some feed back on this one.

BJV game, we go to table to check book at 11 minute mark, to make sure all is good. V Coach comes up and says we have 2 #12, [1 a Soph coming up to JV game and 1 from V squad playing in JV game] he says all is okay though because the table knows the difference.

We say okay let's proceed.

With 4 minutes to go in game I as L call foul on #12,report foul to table [yep you guessed it] table sounds horn and says "that's 5 on #12.

I can't really recall if both #12s were in game at the same time, I don't think so.


V Coach jumps up yelling "no way" that's only like maybe three"

Table says "no that's 5" [Let me add V team had a table representative working their own book during the entire game.]

We go to table check what is the discrepancy, <b>"official" </b>book shows 5 visitors book shows 3 on #12...

Granted these are volunteer students doing the books for both teams, not adults that are paid...

What do we have?

I would have expected that between the two books, since the "table" knows the difference, we would not have had an issue like this...

Neither my partner or I had definite knowledge that #12 had eitehr 3 or 5 fouls.

Any suggestions for next time?

Why is a Varsity player playing on the JV squad? I know there are no rules against it, as far as I know, but really doesn't sound to fair.

I'd hate to be rude, but the second you allowed the game to start with two #12s, you were asking for something like this to happen.

If the official book says 5 fouls then one of the #12s is done. This experience should prompt someone to get another jersey if at all possible.

What do you mean that is not fair. Sometimes you may have a freshman player that is good enough to play freshman, JV, and V ball. I think there are plenty of players, at least in my area that play both JV and V.

I agree with South GA ref on this one. You should have made them change numbers. If you are going to inforce Fed rules you can only have one number 12 in the book.

That being said, I would go with the official book and DQ the player. Maybe the coach will learn a lesson from this. After all it was his book.

Agreed. Somehow, they find a way to get the kid in another jersey. I can guarantee that if you had said no, they would have found a way.

That happens a lot here (and you should know that man!!! :D). Many JV games are mostly varsity players that do not play that much at the varsity level. Or you have some freshman or sophomore players that might get have to make that next step to play at the varsity level. Usually those games are designed to give players that do not play a lot a chance to play better competition. At least that is what I see around here. ;)

Peace

Did the team also have a number 2? If not, tape over the "1."

When allowing something out-of-the-ordinary to happen, be sure to have a thorough meeting with the table personnal before the game begins. The visitor's book was probably right (on the theory that they know their own personnel best and therefore knew which #12 offended which time), but the visitor should have been *constantly* communicating with the official/home book, especially when any foul was called on #12. Kids/volunteers don't necessarily know that. We can help.

Go with the official book on the ruling.

how about taping a number
 

How about turning one of the 12's into a 1 or a 2....as for what you have to do in the situation...you go with the official book.....

I believe that a player is eligible to play in 5 quarters per night. I'm also aware that this is between the school and the state office and we have no jurisdiction over this. We have a Christian HS Conference here and you'll regularly see kids play both JV/V. The schools do a pretty good job keeping up with it.

One question for the Illinois guys; I've had a couple of Illinois teams cross the river to play and this came up at a game and the ILL coach said players get 90 quarters per year, doesn't matter how many quarters per night. What's correct? In my situation, the home coach said "whatever, let's play". Remind you, this is in the Christian Conference not MSHSAA or IHSA.

Re: how about taping a number
 

It would be a good idea to let the kid know not to sweat. Once that happens, he loses the tape and he's no longer legally equipped. Home team has to have another jersey around.

"Coach, you said the table knows the difference. I have to go by their book."

Next time, tell the coach "No" at the beginning of the game. They must have another jersey somewhere, or a pinnie with a different number.

Re: Re: how about taping a number
 

No Chris they don't. You can re tape it if necessary, all you need is an X that goes through a number, and the tape stays on pretty well. The reason I know this works is I have done it, seen it done, had it done to my jersey, it isn't that tough....

My thoughts

1) Coach had a duplicate number and requested we ignore it (like we do a lot a lower level game)

2) Coach has a book and he says they know the difference

3) the books should have talked to discuss fouls on right number 12

3) You called fouls on #12 and I'll bet you dont remember which ones were whose

4) not your fault that this happened.

5) #12 has 5 fouls and he is out. Put the next #12 in and let them play the last 4 minutes

6) If coach doesnt like it tell him to use a different jersey next time.

7) if coach goes ballistic, throw him and maybe he'll figure it out after his one game suspension

Re: Re: Re: how about taping a number
 

ok, I'm glad it worked on your jersey. Maybe you don't sweat, maybe they knew better than to guard you, I don't know. But for however many times it has worked, it hasn't. Just put on another jersey or take a jersey from some kid on JV that didn't play or something. Crap, if we're gonna duct-tape everyone up then lets get those shoe laces to so we don't hae to deal with them.

Tweet, white 12 push.
No, remember I'm #2.
OK, well then we'll wait right here while you run over and have your coach retape your jersey.

I'd do everything I could to make sure both kids got to play. "Coach, you must have an old jersey somewhere huh?"

If not, then I'd allow the use of tape. Yeah, tape comes off once in a while, but we can put it back on. It's a JV game and I'm going to figure out some way to allow both kids to play without having two identical numbers.

Z

I have used tape in some circumstances, but also had games where there were two players with the same number. At the lower levels, you're going to get this. Using common sense (not by the book correct) I'd get both books and look at the foul count quickly. Then I'd explain the discrepancy to the V coach and ask what he thinks. If he doesn't have a problem with changing the "official" count, we change it to what seems to be correct, if not, I say go with the official scorebook. Coach might not like it, but that's what we have to work with. If he wants to be mad, he can vent to the AD that they need more uniforms or about the table not keeping them straight.

ART. 2 . . . After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (see 10-1-2 Penalty):

a. Changing a designated starter, unless necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical-foul free throw.
b. Adding a name to the team member list.
c. Requiring the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

common sense
 

Refdaddy,
No one is disputing that it is legal or not to have 2 players with the same number. The question is, what to do to allow both kids to play at a lower level. Some people won't allow it at the JV level some will...

Please don't misunderstand me, I want both kids to play. Tape/ different jersey/ whatever, especially at the below V level. At the V level, I believe the standards and expectations are higher and we need to apply uniform rules the closest to the book as we can.

How about this solution:

R: "coach, you cant have 2 number 12s"
C: "well, I dont have an extra jersey."
R: "we can tape over one of the numbers and he can play, but you get a T for an illegal uni. Either that or you dont play him. Your choice."

And is that a better solution depending on the level of play? Is it unreasonable at the varsity or JV level to expect teams to have their unis right? A middle school game? Freshman game? Do you guys have a rule of thumb on when you would call this? (again, I am not presuming to know, I am just asking).

Or in the collective minds of the board is this akin to a "roster in the book by 10 minutes" thing that you would just let slide? And if we let is slide all the time, why is it a rule?

is there a point where you would call an illegal uni?

I remember playing (it was a men's league some years ago) and we had two guys with the same number. Ref said just what I quoted above: "put tape on and take a T or he doesnt play." And frankly I thought that was the right solution. We are adults. We didnt have our gear in order. The penalty is what the ref said.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 04:36 PM]

no T from me
 

If I suggest that they tape it, I am not going to T them up for it....anything below the V level I will let slide with the tape thing. The reason being, if the visitors are moving a kid up from the Frosh squad, and one down from the V they probably didn't bring extra jerseys for the situation....make em legal and let em play...

So V is the cutoff for you. Makes sense to me.

Has anyone ever done this and gotten grief from the opposing coach and if so how did you address it?

any coach that gives you grief about this below the JV level is wound toooooo tight...when it has come up, I usually just say "hey coach, they have 2 12's they are going to tape one up and make it a 1 or 2" and the usual response is a dumfounded look like why are you telling me then an ok sounds fine with me....

"Sorry, coach - you took the risk, that's five fouls on the #12 who's out on the court right now."

And, no, I don't give a damn about player names.

Use tape to turn the 1 into a 0, then you have 02, and if they already have a 2, then this is...oh never mind.

Just ruffling some feathers, you should know all about that...;)