I have to tell you folks, some of the recent discussion on this board makes me wonder what in the hell some of us are thinking. Some are going way beyond rule interpretation, case plays, and common sense in coming up with some of these calls. A lot of it is just plain ridiculous.

Now there's nothing wrong with some hard, passionate, even fiery discussion on situations that the NF hasn't made black and white. But some of this crap that's being suggested here and even called on the floor, well, it's going to keep some in rec and elementary school ball for years to come.

I've been around this board for around 5 years and I gotta tell you: there are a few who are going to have their a$$ in a sling if they go out on the floor and makes some of these f'ed up calls that have been suggested here. Consider whether you're really listening to what's being said by the veterans who post on this board. If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write, except to ask questions of course. And remember what my ol' buddy wrote several years ago. It's still good today.

"Get in, get done, get out." - mick chambers

PS - I hope that doesn't come off as being holier than thou. But folks, some of these arguments that just go on and on are ridiculous. We need to keep our heads.

Okay, I'm off my SOAPBOX!!!! :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:25 PM]

Been real busy with lots of other stuff, so have'nt been on much. Just curious, how 'bout some examples. I think I hear what you are trying to say. And it is very easy to "get your tail in a sling" when trying to do what we are asked to do as officials, espc. if one does not take training seriously, listen to a competent mentor, watch upper level officials, etc. etc.

So, a reminder to exercise caution is not a bad thing.

Tony,

I have never agreed with you more at this time and this post. I feel the same way. I am by no means a great official. This is my 9th season as an official. Whatever you think of me as an official (not necessarily you Tony) I do not go around calling things that no one around me supports or understands. Officiating is about calling the obvious. If you are going to stand on the rulebook, you better had a ruling, casebook reference, state ruling and even some other evidence through the NF website or NCAA website to support these unusual situations. If not, then you better differ to some common sense.

I say this a lot but most of us that do this want to move to other levels. Not everyone but most officials I know want to get varsity games or college games at some point. Or they want to see if they can work those types of games. I did a presentation this past November on the very subject of moving up. You will not move up if you start calling things that are only the black and white part of the rulebook. You have to use common sense and know how deal with coaches. If you cannot figure out both of these things, you will not move up. It is really that simple.

Peace

As I am new to this board, and in only my 4th year calling, I would appreciate some examples as well. I had seen some of the "I would've T'd em" posts, which I guess are in the eye of the beholder, but if it misinformation on rules, etc., give me the details!

He's talking about the 0 and 00 discussion thread (at the very least, maybe others). NevadaRef made a T call he thinks is stupid. Some people tried to discuss it and his comment was basically to dismiss the whole discussion.

Just a simple suggestion: rather than getting all pissy, why not join the discussion and explain what you think is good or bad about the call. Isnt this a forum for discussion? Dont worry about others' advancement. Lets talk about the rules and their application.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a discussion forum has other purposes other than discussion. Maybe we can post a rule: "dont discuss something someone else thinks is stupid." Oh wait, then thats not a discussion board. My mistake.

Oh, and the:

was directed at me. After I posted a rule and my own analysis and asked for input. Input. Comments. Thoughts and opinions of senior people. But what I got was this.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 09:25 PM]

Thanks...I will go read that thread.

Clark,

Nevada's T *was* stupid. Big time stupid.

This has been a public service announcement. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Just a word of advice.
 

Actually this is not about you. This tread was started because people are getting off on interpretations and seriously debating things you cannot find anywhere. If you want to give your opinion that is your option. Tony or no one else (other than a moderator of course) cannot hinder your opportunity to speak on any issue. But it is a little frustrating for many veterans that have been coming here for years and see guys who admit to only working certain levels come up with interpretations that are based on nothing but their own thinking. I have not been officiating that long, but I was around when this rule was changed as to whether both 0 and 00 could be used. It was changed to eliminate the confusion. Any official worth their salt is not going to go digging the rational you gave for calling a T. As a matter of fact it is very common to avoid these types of Ts at all costs. You have every right to voice your opinion, but so do officials that do not go along with your rational either. And the fact that you are new as an official just brings more light to that fact.

Peace

Great, and I am happy to hear that. Like I said in one of my posts on the topic "seems like most of the guys I work with wouldnt call that."

And I am happy for your opinion on the matter. That is what I asked in my post. I asked "hey, it seems like the book allows a T, what is the opinion of senior guys on this board." But what I got was shouted down by BBR. That isnt cool.

And the funny thing is I know NevadaRef is a varsity official with serious big game and tournament assignments. Here BBR is talking about calls and how people who make those calls wont advance and yet the guy who made that call that he hates (and which it seems most people say they wouldnt make) is the guy who is working the serious games.

Plus, I am disappointed when I see a senior member of the board say "shut up and go away" when all someone is trying to do is get discussion and feedback from senior members. That doesnt reflect well on the board. Luckily, that attitude is NOT the general attitude of the senior people here on the board who have always otherwise been very helpful and eager to engage in discussion.

Clark

JR-

Thanks for your respones. But it is not "my rationale." Nevada called the T. I just tried to look at the rule and invite comments. In fact, I asked for someone who knew the background of the rule to post. I'm glad you did. Because I shure dont know that stuff.

I may be a new official, but I am a very senior chief deputy district attorney and am very used to making judgment calls in the heat of battle with things on the line. I enjoy it. I understand the dynamics of common sense and discretion being the better part of valor, as they say.

Unfortunately, here is the current level of the discussion: "that T is great!" "No way, that T is lame!!!"

Sorry if I wanted something more.

As I ref and look around my organization, I am looking for the dialed up refs so that I can learn and advance. I see about 50% of the refs that dont really care to know the rules beyond the basics. They played some ball or watched some ball and just want to go call games. They know a block and a charge. But they couldnt care less about the finer points. These guys, with sloppy mechanics, are the 9 year officals that still dont get more than B games and girls JV games. Then there are the guys that know the rules. The ones that develop their knowledge and their mechanics get the better games. Then it seems like the ones with good rules knowledge and good mechanics that also show good quality calls are the ones that get the top games. I want that. But to get that I need a deeper discussion about what is good or bad about a call rather than "that sucks".

And I have a few senior mentors in town who have really helped me. I guarantee I would get a better discussion from them about the 0/00 issue. They are the senior dialed up officials. The ones that need to tell the assignor "hey, this kid is dialed up too, give him a shot."

I agree that the 0/00 is just about as nit picky as you can get. Which is why I thought it was interesting. It is that judgment and when and why it is used that, as a new guy looking in, seems to be the real difference between the guys that get the occasional V games and the guys that get the great V games. So I want to discuss that discretion. Just saying "bad call" or "yeah, it may be a T but dont call it" is a start. But lets talk about why. I want to explore the personal philosophy behind why you call and dont call. Sure "common sense" is a good answer. But that is an unexplored gut answer. Anyone can say that.

Clark

PS: I think I can very easily say it was directed at me. In the 0/00 thread he tells me to "read more and write less" and in this thread he says "If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write, except to ask questions of course."

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 10:14 PM]

Wow, this is getting heavy.

Can't we all just get along?

I kind of equate this to referees that will not give you the time of day because they do not want to see you move up. If you move up, you are a threat.

The forum is a great place to get various OPINIONS and learn from others. If you believe that you cannot learn anything from someone that has been doing this less time than you, then I sincerely feel sorry for you. I'll take advice, knowledge, encouragement, critique, etc. from anyone. All in the name of becoming a better referee.

I thank all for their input and help. I'm off my soapbox!

Thank you for this. It is so accurate.

Totalnewbie...please stop taking things so personally and listen. Listen to the various opinions and advice given in this forum. Listen to the veterans you work with. Then filter out the stuff that is just plain wrong. Then take the rest and work it into your game. Use common sense. There isn't always a finite answer to every situation. Do what makes sense for you. But please...stop the whining.

Preach it, Tony...preach it!!

Totalnewbie, you can get your panties in a wad if you like. But the thread wasn't aimed at you or anyone specific individual. Ask anyone who's been here a while, if I thought you were a problem or I had a problem with you, I'd say it.

You stated, "NevadaRef made a T call he thinks is stupid." WRONG! I never said that, nor was this thread directed specifically at that thread. There have been a dozen threads in the past two months that i could have specifically addressed. I have no problem with someone making a call during a game and then re-thinking it. By dammit, when it's discussed over and over, people are presented with the facts and still advocate going out there making a call that has been proven wrong, yeah, that's stupid.

You stated, "...yet the guy who made that call that he hates..." refering to NevadaRef. BULL$HIT! First, I don't hate anyone here. Secondly, nothing in that entire thread was aimed at him. Finally, I suggest you read the thread, "Players in Official Scorebook," where I wrote, "NVRef is a valuable contributor to this board. He and I don't always see eye to eye but personally, I think has a very good understanding of the rules and how to apply them. To date, he's certainly contributed a whole lot more to this site than you have," refering to a poster that had had unfairly criticized him.

As I said, somtimes new officials are better off reading and asking questions as opposed to writing and trying to provide answers. Many think they know everything. i know I did when I first started. But sometimes we all need to shut up and listen. If that offends you, oh well. It's the truth IMHO.

BTW, in case I didn't previously say it, welcome to the forum! Keep those feelings off your sleeve.

He gets up on a soapbox and I am whining? In what universe does that make sense? :) And it doesnt seem to be my panties in a wad. But hey...

As for listening, that is all I have done all season. To all the contradictory information given to me. I smile and nod to the guys who clearly dont know what they are talking about ("you can grant the time out to white, red had the ball but hadnt inbounded it yet, the ball is still dead"..."uh, ok, whatever you say"). And I take it from the senior guys who are clearly living off their old achievements and havent cracked a new rule book in years. And I take it from the young up and comers who look so squared away but still seem to swallow their whistle on a big call. And I take it from the guy who uses mechanics that nobody ever heard of but that look so good. And from the guy who says slide a little lower. And from the guy that says stay up higher. And from the guy that says move faster. And the guy that says move slower. And I go in and listen to varsity guys do their pregame. And then I try to pregame with my rec league partner who doesnt want to do it and who says "lets tighten up the whistles in the second half, I gotta get outa here." But most of all I take advice from the squared away officials that I see and I work that stuff into my game. And from my two mentors who are totally squared away. And from the good guys that are varsity level who work with me on JV games to help me out. And here on these boards I see comments or situations that help me. So if you think I'm not listening, think again.

But if you think because I am new to officiating that I wont join in the analysis, that isnt going to happen. I certainly dont think I know everything, in fact one of my strengths is that I know I dont know everything. I have trained too many attorneys across the country to fall into that trap. I am new, and I know it.

It seems that there are a few people on this board who take themselves way too seriously. So I have definately read and listened to that, and learned. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

Clark

PS--I didnt say you hated anyone here, I said you hated his T.

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 12:01 AM]

Makes no difference to me whether you join in the "analysis" or not. Nor does it matter to me how many attorneys you've "trained." Unless, of course, you've trained them to be basketball officials. :D

Good night!

That I have not done. :)

Clark

PS--and if I did, I would say not to call that T :)

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 12:13 AM]

I think everyone gets that you're an attorney. Why do you keep bringing it up?

How about this: I have trained too many professional-level people to fall into that trap.

I bring it up just to say I'm not your normal 22 year old newb with no life experience making rules interpretations and using common sense in pressure situations. I do it on a daily basis. I dont give a *** that it happens to be attorneys and I dont expect you too either. I dont give a rat's a** what people do for a living and dont think one thing makes anyone better than anyone else if that is what you think I am doing. But I do mention it because it is a mindset. I am used to scrutinizing rules in a particular way. The 0/00 thread is a great example. To me that is fun to scrutinize. To everyone else it is probably "I dont call that T. I'm done with this." That's fine.

Clark

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of us have jobs. You just mention a lot that you're an attorney. I just wondered if you think that means you're smarter than everyone else. If you get this wound up over some discussions in a web forum, I wonder how wound up you get during the course of a heated game. :confused:

See? I told you he was being too legalistic, even before knew he claimed to be an attorney. How's that for analysis? :)

My name's Rich and I have a day job.

The most analytic people can have a real problem with the concept of "spirit" of the rules.

The T was not well thought out in my opinion, but I've done some pretty stupid things in my day. I'm certainly not calling NevadaRef stupid.

Pregame administrative technicals are avoided in my games. I get the book and I make sure it's fixed. And if the other coach complains about it, I stare at his pants until he goes away.

No, seriously, I tell the coach I would've done the same for him and we're not going to start a game in that way. He wants to complain to the state office, he has the number, but most coaches are reasonable in that way.

--Rich

I agree with Rich. We only have 10 minutes between games so I'm not going to worry about trying to find an administrative T.

I'm just hoping that they get the books fixed so we can let the coaches check them, make sure starters are marked and that we have a captain.

If we can get all that done before the clock winds down that's great.

Most coaches don't have a clue about the time limits anyway.

Thanks
David

I might get hacked to bits for this, but....

You have to admit that newcomers can have a tough time on this board if certain people don't like their attitude. Most of the time it's bang-on, and weeds out those "trolls" that come calling from time to time (I still remember the rash of first-time posters we got last spring during the Final Four - yikes!).

But sometimes, some of the veterans here come off like they have nothing to learn, and those that don't agree are sometimes cast aside or dismissed.

I agree with Tony's basic argument....the discussion over the last while has disintegrated a bit. But don't y'all forget to look in the mirror from time to time, too.

I love reading this board, I've never been steered wrong when I've come forward with a sitch or interpretation, which I appreciate. But it's up to ALL the people in this fine community to make things work like we want them to.

Just my $0.02 (about $0.0178 in Magic Padgett Bucks :))

I've posted before the fact that I think some people on this board have gained a reputation for typing good instead of really being good on the court. Over time I have learned that some of those people have a high probability of being a good official and some don't. That is my fault for maybe speaking up too soon pure and simple. However, I know for a fact that there are officials that work at a high level on this board but get dumped on because of their post count. I can't change that, it is what it is. What we should realize as veteran officials is times have changed and this recent trend on the board is just a reflection of that. A new official wants it now and they don't want to read/listen more than they talk even though that might be the best thing to do.

1. I emulated the veteran officials when I started. From the uniform to the mechanics.

2. While emulating those veterans I was seen and not heard. In other words I shut up and listened.

3. Given the choice of mentoring/advising a "young official" that is 21 or a seasoned professional in their job I would take the 21 year old 8 days a week. Some think success in their profession means success as an official.

4. I have seen some posts that make me wonder also "I had an intense 8th grade game." Huh? Is that possible?

I think young officials should ask questions but it would probably help the entire situation if they ask complete/precise questions. It seems like information is left out too many times and it comes back to bite them. Officiating requires thick skin and sometimes we get our arse kicked when we don't realize this.

P.S. Totalnewbie, I'm very curious to know who these "squared away" officials are that are your mentors. Since I lived where you are I'm sure I know them as does Nevada. I also know that a lot of the officials that are really "squared away" are constantly on the road doing college games. Can you post your mentors initials (I know that might be much)? I think I was pretty "squared away" when I lived there and I might be able to help you out some.

[Edited by tomegun on Feb 1st, 2005 at 09:59 AM]

Exactly, which is why it's best to step back and take in what you're reading rather than going off on some ridiculous situation that will never happen. And like it or not, that's even more important for new officials.

My post is NOT about the "0 or 00" thread. Some of the posts within that thread are just a few of the MANY situations that have been discussed, which have led posters off in the wrong direction. The point is that many of them are pointless and even more important, confusing.

Call the obvious. Learn how do handle the unexpected. But don't be a plumber.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
The point is that many of them are pointless and even more important, confusing.

I am in absolute agreement with that statement.



Call the obvious. Learn how do handle the unexpected. But don't be a plumber. [/QUOTE}

There needs to be a correction here though- that should have been a "certified" plumber. (Is that the same as being an attorney?)

A few comments (may get me in trouble but what the he!!)

An official does not have to work a varsity game between the top two teams in the state to have an intense and exciting game. I stuck around after a couple of games I called a few years ago to watch the son of a close freind play. It was a 8th grade game between two skilled and well coached teams...both were undefeated and the winner played for the city championship. There were about 500 people crammed in the small gym and most of the time you could barely hear yourself think. Largest lead was 4...game won on a last second 3. Since then, I have been to several dozen HS varstiy games with nowhere near the crowd and a much more docile environment. So let's don't poo-poo someone's "big night" because it doesn't fit your definition.

For the most part, the senior people hear appear to be great officials...I say that even though I have not seen them work. They appear to have excellent rules knowledge, and I assume they are good at applying those rules and managing the game. However, just because you know the rules does not mean you can apply them or that you are a good official.

On the other end of the spectrum, just because someone has been calling games for 10+ years does not make them someone to be listened to and admired. In my area, it is possible for an official with 3 years experience to be calling a mostly varsity schedule for 2A and 3A schools (largest schools are 5A). It is very hard, however, to "crack" the group that gets the 5A games...unless you know someone. I have stayed to watch the varsity guys work many times at all size schools. I see some at 3A games that, in my "inexperienced" opinion, are much better than some of the old guys (in years) trying to handle the 5A games. I have heard some of the "old guys" comment, almost with pride, at the fact that they have not opened the rule book in years, consistently score in the low 80's on the test and still get the "big games". Do you really want a new official to follow their example?

Guess the point I am trying to make is that this is a public disussion board. Anyone is free to post their thoughts and opinions (until the moderators ban them). Post should be treated like comments from veterans...use what you can, ignore the rest.

Fair enough Larry. I guess everyone's definition of intense is different. I don't really think a lot of HS Varsity games are intense either.

This is the beauty of a forum like this. You get to choose which rules interpretations or advice to put into your game to make it better. This forum is exactly like an association of officials. You'll get some strong advice from veterans that may be good advice and may be bad advice. You'll get contradictory advice. You'll run into some arrogance. You'll sometimes not get a good answer to a question at all. And you'll maybe find one or two people that you trust completely. I was just like some of these new guys when I was new. I thought I knew more than I did. I didn't listen to some of the common sense advice I was getting. Then one day it all sort of made sense. That was when I was ready to move up. Thank goodness I didn't get any opportunities to move up before I understood the common sense part. I would have made a mess of the games I got to work. No matter how successful you may be in your every day life, you have to still go through the motions and gain the experience necessary to do a good job at basketball officiating before you earn the respect of your peers.

But at some point, when the disinformation becomes confusing and just plain wrong, it needs to be cleaned up. Would you allow someone to stand in front of a local association, spout incorrect interpretations that would confuse and frustrate inexperienced members and create bad situations in a game?

I think not.

This is a function, I think, if the games you've worked in the past.

I worked a JV game a few weeks ago. I had to keep telling myself that this is the important game of the night for me, for the players, for the coaches, for the parents, etc. I will admit that enthusiasm and excitement for this game did NOT come naturally for me. As far as I could tell, nobody could tell -- I worked very hard from beginning to end and even got a compliment from some losing team parents on the way out :)

When I read something like this, I actually like it -- it shows me that younger and newer officials have passion for the game. Reminds me why I've stuck around since 1987 and hope to stick around till 2037 :)

--Rich

According to Dan's website, I'll be dead in 2035. :(

Then, perhaps everyone on this board will be rid of me. :)

Come on Larry.
 

An 8th grade championship game?

I have worked an 8th grade regional game before and I have worked my share of very insignificant varsity games. There is much more pressure at the varsity game with 100 people in the stands. Intensity is one thing. It is another when more eyes are at play at a sorry *** varsity game. I can get rated at the most sad varsity contests; I cannot get rated at a JH game of any kind. These two things are not even comparable.

Peace

I guess since opinions are like "noses" or other body parts, I'll jump into this. I am by no means the official that I want to be, but then again I'm not the teacher I want to be or the man I want to be. I think we are always a work in progress as far as anything we do. This is why I'm on the forum. I see the form as a public place to vent, discuss, and learn about the game we officiate. The good thing about everyone that posts here is that they must be trying to improve, or else they wouldn't be here. I'm sure I've made rules posts and game situation posts that may have been incorrect or not the best for game management at the time, but that is why we post. So we can learn from these mistakes and not make them again. To me, this is the most valuable aspect of the forum. There is not substitute for experience, but talking through situations on the board and in person with other officials will make us better as a group.

Re: Come on Larry.
 

I'm surprised it took you so long to criticize the comment. I fully expected it to come from you first.

I glad for you that you are now only rated on varsity games. However, I was waiting for a JH rec game to start this last weekend (I was working it with my son, a new official) and there was a league official there watching a kid, in his first year, officiate a 6th grade game (my guess is the official was 19-20). The guy needs to find officials that are good enough to call 8th grade so he can more those officials to cover his HS ages. But you probably don't consider that a meaningful evaluation because is wasn't at a varsity game.

You normally have good information in your post and appear to be one of the officials many could learn from. However, at least for me, your arrogance gets in the way at times.

Re: Re: Come on Larry.
 

LarryS,
What I read was that Rut agreed there was intensity in Junior High, but that he felt more pressure in varsity games because of the ratings that resulted.
Junior High officials in his area apparently do not get rated.
mick

Hey Tony, would this thread now be an example of the type of thread you started this post about in the first place???

Holy crap - that sentence just gave me a headache...I need a brownpop!

Re: Re: Come on Larry.
 

Larry it is clear that you do not understand what I am saying to you. I am not talking about evaluation and helping officials. You can help any officials at all levels, even the varsity and college level. I know any game I work I ask for advice if I am working with a more experienced official and try to discuss philosophy. Your post was that someone is going to have a more intense game at the 8th grade level than a varsity game. Maybe our definition of intensity is just different, but having a bunch of fans screaming and yelling does not equal intensity in my mind. Intensity in my way of thinking has to do with who is watching, who is playing, what are the consequences of the actions of the players, coaches and officials.

I am the Vice-President of one of my associations. I am a member of 4 basketball organizations. I have never heard anyone seriously ask the top brass in any of those associations how they can get the 8th grade championship. That tells me that when people talk about games, they are not talking about. I work many middle school football games; no one talks about those games or asks me about the games or even care that I do them. I get a lot of questions about my regular season games and there is a lot of talk about who works the playoffs and why they got those games. I am sorry that is arrogant to state the obvious truth.

Well Larry you have the right to dismiss everything I say. I have the right to dismiss the advice or comments of many other officials on this site and I do that all the time. But when I talk to younger officials and run classes for younger officials, the questions do not surround the 8th grade championship. It revolves around how they can get better and how to they work the games that are assigned by the varsity assignors and how they get college opportunities and HS playoff opportunities. If that is arrogant to state that, then that is just something you are going to have to deal with. I am not here to make everyone happy and say the things to make you feel better about yourself. Officiating is a competitive hobby, where people want to know what it takes to move up the ranks and get the recognition as a good official. I have helped train many younger officials and I never see the official that wants to be the 8th grade championship official step up and do that kind of training to make officiating better. Nor do we let officials that have not accomplished certain things just speak or step to the forefront. If I am arrogant, everyone that is in a leadership role in any group I belong to is arrogant. I cannot name one official that does not share similar attitudes about those kinds of games as I do and the comparison you gave.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Come on Larry.
 

Our association has a mentor program. The purpose of that mentor program is to evaluate officials for HS ball. We do not have a structure that puts officials at the middle school level if they are brand new. A brand new official can work as many freshman and sophomore games as they like. Of course they can work JH or middle school games, but if they want to get a their name out there, they better put a big effort to working as much HS games as they can handle.

Peace

IMHO, all good officials have some level of arrogance. If you don't then you shouldn't think you are worthy of any game you get that is a move up. Larry, of course your definition of arrogance might be different.

I really don't see anything wrong with someone stating what level basketball they work. It takes hard work to get someplace and it is something to be proud of. I also work various levels to still work on play calling. Now some people pounce on that but I have been blessed to be in some great situations to be seen. Doing games that others might see as below me is my way of never becoming bigger than the game. Having said that I still don't think of an 8th grade game as being intense. If I felt a partner of mine felt this way I would do my best to put them at ease. Just my opinion.

tomegun-

The initials wont help since there are too many officials here (as you know). So the names are Ron Thompson and Rick Massey. More Ron than Rick, though. Ron actually has taken me on the court and worked stuff with me and been at my games specifically to review me. Rick has helped me with other things like who to sit with and watch and what to do to be squared away. Both a real good guys. And I have met a bunch of Varsity guys who have been really great. Too many names to remember. But Ron is probably my primary senior mentor.

I was directed to Ron by both Rick Massey and Mark Ratner (whose kid plays some serious ball, by the way, since you are from down here). I figure if the assignor and the head of the association direct you to the guy you can feel pretty good about that.

If you have any suggestions for me I would be happy to have it.

Clark

It's RELATIVE guys.

If you are doing MS ball an 8th grade championship is intense, even if you have moved beyond that level it does not make it less intense or important.

The lower levels tend to have more fans, less talented players, less experienced coaches, and you are working with less experienced partners and all that equals pressure.

A big 8th grade game is MUCH harder to work than a run of the mill varsity game. The better the players the easier it is to call, less funky rules interpretations, coaches know what they are doing, and you have more experienced partners.

DJ, ask me in 2036. :)

Re: Intense 8th grade games

Intense for the players and fans does not equal intensity for the refs. Some refs are into this as a career and view each game as an audition. They will never see a lesser game as worthy of them. Some refs are into this because they love basketball and feel that a well-played game is exciting at any level.

If a shot at the buzzer in a close game at any age level doesn't get your blood flowing, I pity you. If this ever happened to me I'd move on to something else. But, to each his own.

intensity
 

Intensity, to me, is something that is created within the game. A 5A state championship game can open with a 27-2 run by one side and slide downhill from there. The first JV girls game of the season can be nip and tuck from the start and be settled by 2 free throws with no time on the clock. Which is more intense? I will do games this week from 9-10 year old to varsity. The most important game to me is THE GAME I AM CALLING NOW. Any rating which results from any game should take care of itself.

Right on, jimgolf.

At a camp I attended, a guy who had worked some D1 told me that the try-out camp he attended to get into D2 was based on Jr Hi play. Anyone who said, "What kinda crap is this?" didn't get hired. Anyone who asked why, was told, "If you can do this you can do anything."

Well, well, you seem to be in good company. Ron is part of the "cartel." Tell him you talked to Tom in a discussion board. If you are dealing with Ron you will meet Sam, Wayne, Tre and Riel if you haven't already.

Ratner's kid can really play. It is amazing that one of the most powerful men in boxing is that nice and available.

My suggestion for you is to work and see plays. Once you reach a certain level of understanding do not get satisfied and think you will hear all good stuff. Keep pushing towards that perfect game!

Rainmaker, there is also a D1 conference in your part of the country that has similar circumstances at camp. The assigner lives in Phoenix. You probably know who she is.

I think I fall into both categories. Every game is somewhat of an audition but I'm also a basketball junkie. A typical day for me could be responding to emails from a group of guys about sports debates, look at this board, playing a game in the over-30 league, looking at this board and then doing a game in the evening (on many levels from rec to D2).

Maybe it is all about the word "intense" for me. I just don't feel "intense" in many situations. I can definately tell when the gym is excited but it isn't part of the job description for me to feel the "intensity." That makes me feel like I'm getting caught up in the emotions of the game. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for feeling different, this is just me.

Marla Denham, Big Sky conference. She has her camp during the Grand Canyon State Games.

Tom-

Yeah, I know Tre and Real (Riel? sp?). I have to say, I have seen Tre twice and I think that guy is a total stud. I would love to have his mechanics. He is so crisp. No that guy is "dialed up."

I was hanging with Rick and Jesus tonite. Those two (and another guy I dont know) had the boys V while I had girls JV in the aux gym (with a super cool female ref named Danielle Collins or Connors. Her dad is a ref too) at Silverado for Silverado/Liberty. In fact, I was talking to Rick about Tre in passing.

I'll tell them I talked to you.

Clark

Super cool, Clark?!?! Now you have eliminated any doubt that there might have been about how your bones would carbon date!

Come on, my name is "Clark" for gods sake. I gave up cool long ago. :) How many people do you know named Clark? Gable and Kent. That is about it. One is a stage name and the other is a fictional character. I'm out here on my own, baby. I couldnt even get the racing car door nameplate for my room door as a kid with "Clark" on it. "Clarence" they had, but no "Clark." Scarred for life.

"C-man" (was that better :) )

Wow, I feel for you. At least I will after I stop laughing!

My three boys all have this problem -- Clinton, Copeland and Frank (who goes by his middle name, Mason). No license plates for their trikes, no coffee mugs. Yea, life it tough.

Yeah Tre could be the prototype for the idea body of a ref. He is physically gifted and can officiate. Have you seen Riel (correct spelling) work? He is pretty good to, at least the PAC-10 assigner thinks so (since he got a conference game this season). :D This conversation makes me miss Vegas. Even though there are some great guys here that is home to me. Tell them I said hey. I know all of the guys that you see working varsity unless they got to Vegas in the last two seasons.

I have one more suggestion for you. Accept the jargon of those around/above you instead of making up your own. :D

Answer
 

Two, you and Clark Howard. http://clarkhoward.com/
You're not him, are you?

How about Clark W. Griswold. There is a foumous Clark for ya.

Agreed. I get more excited at the anticipation of a big game. I donm't necessarily feel the excitment or intensity of the game once in it. I'm should thinking, "Okay, what's going to happen next? What do we need to do? Do we need to do anything differently?"

Then, when it's over, you can enjoy it.

Isn't Marcia Clark a lawyer? You first name isn't Marcia is it, Clrak? :D

Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

That is what I'm talking about. I had a game yesterday that was #2 versus #3 in the catholic league. It got pushed to today then to Sunday. One of the teams is coached by Morgan Wooten's son and this will be my first time doing one of his games. The Catholic league is the premier league in the DC area (maybe the country) and the games are better than some JUCO games I've done. I will be excited from now until Sunday about it, along with my other games, but I will be level-headed when I toss the ball. I can't get too excited because I have three other games to get excited about between now and then. :D

I love Chevy Chase as Clark W. Griswold. :) But again, a fictional character. This consumer action guy, luckily, is not me.

The main benefit of being named Clark is that when someone says your name in a crowd you know they are talking to you.

Clark