SOAPBOX!!!

[BktBallRef]

Makes no difference to me whether you join in the "analysis" or not. Nor does it matter to me how many attorneys you've "trained." Unless, of course, you've trained them to be basketball officials.

Good night!

[totalnewbie]

That I have not done.

Clark

PS--and if I did, I would say not to call that T

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 12:13 AM]

[Smitty]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
I have trained too many attorneys across the country to fall into that trap.

I think everyone gets that you're an attorney. Why do you keep bringing it up?

[totalnewbie]

How about this: I have trained too many professional-level people to fall into that trap.

I bring it up just to say I'm not your normal 22 year old newb with no life experience making rules interpretations and using common sense in pressure situations. I do it on a daily basis. I dont give a *** that it happens to be attorneys and I dont expect you too either. I dont give a rat's a** what people do for a living and dont think one thing makes anyone better than anyone else if that is what you think I am doing. But I do mention it because it is a mindset. I am used to scrutinizing rules in a particular way. The 0/00 thread is a great example. To me that is fun to scrutinize. To everyone else it is probably "I dont call that T. I'm done with this." That's fine.

Clark

[Smitty]

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of us have jobs. You just mention a lot that you're an attorney. I just wondered if you think that means you're smarter than everyone else. If you get this wound up over some discussions in a web forum, I wonder how wound up you get during the course of a heated game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Smitty

I think everyone gets that you're an attorney. Why do you keep bringing it up?

See? I told you he was being too legalistic, even before knew he claimed to be an attorney. How's that for analysis?

[Rich]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

See? I told you he was being too legalistic, even before knew he claimed to be an attorney. How's that for analysis?

My name's Rich and I have a day job.

The most analytic people can have a real problem with the concept of "spirit" of the rules.

The T was not well thought out in my opinion, but I've done some pretty stupid things in my day. I'm certainly not calling NevadaRef stupid.

Pregame administrative technicals are avoided in my games. I get the book and I make sure it's fixed. And if the other coach complains about it, I stare at his pants until he goes away.

No, seriously, I tell the coach I would've done the same for him and we're not going to start a game in that way. He wants to complain to the state office, he has the number, but most coaches are reasonable in that way.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

My name's Rich and I have a day job.

The most analytic people can have a real problem with the concept of "spirit" of the rules.

The T was not well thought out in my opinion, but I've done some pretty stupid things in my day. I'm certainly not calling NevadaRef stupid.

Pregame administrative technicals are avoided in my games. I get the book and I make sure it's fixed. And if the other coach complains about it, I stare at his pants until he goes away.

No, seriously, I tell the coach I would've done the same for him and we're not going to start a game in that way. He wants to complain to the state office, he has the number, but most coaches are reasonable in that way.

--Rich

I agree with Rich. We only have 10 minutes between games so I'm not going to worry about trying to find an administrative T.

I'm just hoping that they get the books fixed so we can let the coaches check them, make sure starters are marked and that we have a captain.

If we can get all that done before the clock winds down that's great.

Most coaches don't have a clue about the time limits anyway.

Thanks
David

[canuckrefguy]

I might get hacked to bits for this, but....

You have to admit that newcomers can have a tough time on this board if certain people don't like their attitude. Most of the time it's bang-on, and weeds out those "trolls" that come calling from time to time (I still remember the rash of first-time posters we got last spring during the Final Four - yikes!).

But sometimes, some of the veterans here come off like they have nothing to learn, and those that don't agree are sometimes cast aside or dismissed.

I agree with Tony's basic argument....the discussion over the last while has disintegrated a bit. But don't y'all forget to look in the mirror from time to time, too.

I love reading this board, I've never been steered wrong when I've come forward with a sitch or interpretation, which I appreciate. But it's up to ALL the people in this fine community to make things work like we want them to.

Just my $0.02 (about $0.0178 in Magic Padgett Bucks )

[tomegun]

I've posted before the fact that I think some people on this board have gained a reputation for typing good instead of really being good on the court. Over time I have learned that some of those people have a high probability of being a good official and some don't. That is my fault for maybe speaking up too soon pure and simple. However, I know for a fact that there are officials that work at a high level on this board but get dumped on because of their post count. I can't change that, it is what it is. What we should realize as veteran officials is times have changed and this recent trend on the board is just a reflection of that. A new official wants it now and they don't want to read/listen more than they talk even though that might be the best thing to do.

1. I emulated the veteran officials when I started. From the uniform to the mechanics.

2. While emulating those veterans I was seen and not heard. In other words I shut up and listened.

3. Given the choice of mentoring/advising a "young official" that is 21 or a seasoned professional in their job I would take the 21 year old 8 days a week. Some think success in their profession means success as an official.

4. I have seen some posts that make me wonder also "I had an intense 8th grade game." Huh? Is that possible?

I think young officials should ask questions but it would probably help the entire situation if they ask complete/precise questions. It seems like information is left out too many times and it comes back to bite them. Officiating requires thick skin and sometimes we get our arse kicked when we don't realize this.

P.S. Totalnewbie, I'm very curious to know who these "squared away" officials are that are your mentors. Since I lived where you are I'm sure I know them as does Nevada. I also know that a lot of the officials that are really "squared away" are constantly on the road doing college games. Can you post your mentors initials (I know that might be much)? I think I was pretty "squared away" when I lived there and I might be able to help you out some.

[Edited by tomegun on Feb 1st, 2005 at 09:59 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
I love reading this board, I've never been steered wrong when I've come forward with a sitch or interpretation, which I appreciate.

Exactly, which is why it's best to step back and take in what you're reading rather than going off on some ridiculous situation that will never happen. And like it or not, that's even more important for new officials.

My post is NOT about the "0 or 00" thread. Some of the posts within that thread are just a few of the MANY situations that have been discussed, which have led posters off in the wrong direction. The point is that many of them are pointless and even more important, confusing.

Call the obvious. Learn how do handle the unexpected. But don't be a plumber.

[WinterWillie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
The point is that many of them are pointless and even more important, confusing.

I am in absolute agreement with that statement.



Call the obvious. Learn how do handle the unexpected. But don't be a plumber. [/QUOTE}

There needs to be a correction here though- that should have been a "certified" plumber. (Is that the same as being an attorney?)

[LarryS]

A few comments (may get me in trouble but what the he!!)

An official does not have to work a varsity game between the top two teams in the state to have an intense and exciting game. I stuck around after a couple of games I called a few years ago to watch the son of a close freind play. It was a 8th grade game between two skilled and well coached teams...both were undefeated and the winner played for the city championship. There were about 500 people crammed in the small gym and most of the time you could barely hear yourself think. Largest lead was 4...game won on a last second 3. Since then, I have been to several dozen HS varstiy games with nowhere near the crowd and a much more docile environment. So let's don't poo-poo someone's "big night" because it doesn't fit your definition.

For the most part, the senior people hear appear to be great officials...I say that even though I have not seen them work. They appear to have excellent rules knowledge, and I assume they are good at applying those rules and managing the game. However, just because you know the rules does not mean you can apply them or that you are a good official.

On the other end of the spectrum, just because someone has been calling games for 10+ years does not make them someone to be listened to and admired. In my area, it is possible for an official with 3 years experience to be calling a mostly varsity schedule for 2A and 3A schools (largest schools are 5A). It is very hard, however, to "crack" the group that gets the 5A games...unless you know someone. I have stayed to watch the varsity guys work many times at all size schools. I see some at 3A games that, in my "inexperienced" opinion, are much better than some of the old guys (in years) trying to handle the 5A games. I have heard some of the "old guys" comment, almost with pride, at the fact that they have not opened the rule book in years, consistently score in the low 80's on the test and still get the "big games". Do you really want a new official to follow their example?

Guess the point I am trying to make is that this is a public disussion board. Anyone is free to post their thoughts and opinions (until the moderators ban them). Post should be treated like comments from veterans...use what you can, ignore the rest.

[tomegun]

Fair enough Larry. I guess everyone's definition of intense is different. I don't really think a lot of HS Varsity games are intense either.

[Smitty]

This is the beauty of a forum like this. You get to choose which rules interpretations or advice to put into your game to make it better. This forum is exactly like an association of officials. You'll get some strong advice from veterans that may be good advice and may be bad advice. You'll get contradictory advice. You'll run into some arrogance. You'll sometimes not get a good answer to a question at all. And you'll maybe find one or two people that you trust completely. I was just like some of these new guys when I was new. I thought I knew more than I did. I didn't listen to some of the common sense advice I was getting. Then one day it all sort of made sense. That was when I was ready to move up. Thank goodness I didn't get any opportunities to move up before I understood the common sense part. I would have made a mess of the games I got to work. No matter how successful you may be in your every day life, you have to still go through the motions and gain the experience necessary to do a good job at basketball officiating before you earn the respect of your peers.