BV league game. First place and hosting of the post-season tournament on the line. Both teams submit written lists to the scorer with their team rosters. I check the book at the 11 minute mark and all players are listed in ascending numerical order. The count of players on the court matches up. I notice that the first number listed for the visiting team is 0. I also see the written list that the team submitted and it also lists the kid as a single zero. The kids all have shooting shirts on during warm-ups so their numbers are not visible during this time.

I recall the rule that a team may no longer have both zero and double-zero, so I give a quick scan down the roster to make sure that there is not a double-zero listed. There isn't.

Well, the anthem is played and the starters are being announced. The first starter called out for the visitors is announced as number zero. He runs onto the court wearing double-zero!
All other starters are fine.

How many of you would start the game with a team technical foul and correct the number in the scorebook from zero to double-zero?

I would not say a word. I would just let it go. Unless the name was wrong, I would just let it go.

Peace

Since I wont be working that game for a number of years :) I'll answer in response as if this happened at a boys or girls JV game. Plus, that might spur discussion of whether or not the level of the game changes the answer.

It appears that the rule book contemplates that 0 and 00 are allowable but that no team may have both.

The question becomes: is the reason for "no 0 and 00" because the rules contemplate them as the same number?

If so, then there is no T since 0 and 00 are the same number.

If not, then the rules view them as different numbers and the player is not wearing a proper number as reflected in the book and its a T.

My problem is that while, like NR, I know that you cant have a 0 and 00 on the same team, off the top of my head I dont remember where that rule is or what the reasoning for it is.

SO...because I dont have full knowledge of the reason for the rule, I would NOT have called the T so long as there was not also a number 0 and would have treated 0 and 00 as the same number.

But that said, had I believed the rule was that 0 and 00 were seperate numbers I would have given the T and started the game with 2 shots and a throw in. Some say ignore that cheesy stuff. But on the other hand, one team did it right and the other team didnt. How about rewarding the team that managed to follow the rules. Now I cant wait to hear what people with actual experience (unlike me) would do. This is very helpful to my development.

Now I am going to bust out the rule book and find that 0/00 rule...

Clark

OK, here we go:

Given the above, it appears the rules contemplate that 0 and 00 are different numbers. If they believed them to be the same number then I believe the rule would read: "The following numbers are legal: 0 or 00, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, etc." Plus, they refer to them as "shall not have both numbers 0 and 00."

But then I am a lawyer so I get all picky about language.

So given that it appears that the rules contemplate 0 and 00 as different numbers, then we should call the T in the situation that NevadaRef described above. Its no different than being listed as number 4 and wearing number 44.

I cant wait to hear the discussion on this. :)

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 03:14 AM]

Nevada, see my above post. You must have posted as I was posting :)

What do you think of my reasoning given the text of the rule?

Clark

Clark,
I agree with your reasoning and called the T. First time that I have ever started a game with a T.

I'm just looking for feedback from others. I wanted to see if the prevailing opinion was overwhelming one way or the other.

OK...if you want feedback, I'll give you my opinion.

Excellent job...concerning the proper rules application.

Now, for what I would have done.
NOTHING. Except, told the score keeper to add another 0 and explain why so it doesn't happen again.

I don't think the spirit of the rule intends to punish a team for a clerical error. There was no deliberate attempt to deceive or subvert the administration of the game. Just scribble in another "0" and toss it up.

Well...yes and no.

In basketball terms you could say 4 is a symbol and 0 is a symbol. 44 is another symbol and 00 is yet another. Therefore, you would be correct.

In real life 4 is a number and 0 is a number. (Mathmaticians have at it, as to weather they are whole numbers, odd, even, proper, etc.) :)
There are 40 different numbers between 4 and 44.
There are 0 numbers between 0 and 00.
The middle school girl doing the books has no idea that 0 is different than 00. It's just 0 to her.
Give her a lesson in basketball jargon...not mathmatics...and move on.

Great job giving the T.
 

You applied the rule and penalized accordingly.

The one thing which comes to mind is what is the next official going to do when the same roster is used the next game? Will he/she apply the rule?

Personally, I would have added the other 0 in the book myself and informed the coach so it wouldn't happen again.

1) Mathmaticians have at it, as to <font color = red>weather</font> they are whole numbers, odd, even, proper, etc.

2)There are 40 different numbers between 4 and 44.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Mr. Language Person says that the correct word is "whether".

2) Mr. Mathematics Person says that there are 39 different numbers between 4 and 44, not 40.

3) JR says that he agrees with you on the way that you said that you would have handled this one. :D

The purpose of the 0 and 00 rule is that they aren't both allowed because they are the same number.

No T from me.

If the book showed #4's number as "4" and he walked onto the court with "04" on the jersey...would you T them up because they left off the "O"?

NO T

[Edited by joseph2493 on Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:46 AM]

Ditto.

I'm not giving a T for this - as long as we don't have 0 and 00, we're okay.

Now for the reason as to this prohibition. It's not that 0 and 00 would be too hard to track in the scorebook (we scorers have learned how to figure out 4 and 44), but that computerized statistics programs can't differentiate between 0 and 00.

The next time you look at a (computerized) box score, look at the numbers - you'll noticed the players aren't listed as 2, 4, and 5 - they're listed as 02, 04, and 05.

If I was the opposing coach, and saw what happened, I'd be upset if you DIDN'T call the T. A practice here in Houston for Varsity Games is let both the coachs check the official book, and initial that all numbers and names are correct. That takes the onus of being the "bad guy" off of the refs. If there is a "clerical" error, the coach has a chance to correct it. If the coach doesn't, and a bookkeeping Technical is called, the referees are merely enforcing the rules, not being "ticky-tack."

This is a bit off subject but related. I've seen it done both ways and have found myself at times doing to both ways. Team A has a player with #3 and one with #33. 3 gets the foul. When you report it do you say and signal, "Gold 3" or say and signal "Gold 03?" People at the table sometimes forget to pay attention and get confused about how many threes they heard.

I wouldn't have done this, not in a million years.

No T from me.

I'd pass on the T in this one.

I never would say "0-3" when reporting. If the scorer cannot pay attention and get that right, then they do not need to be there. They need to give you all their attention until you report the number. If they are confused by that, then maybe they need to watch the game instead of trying to participate in the game. Believe me, I will not have to be the one that makes that decision when the give a foul to the wrong player in a big game. ;)

Peace

No T.

No "T" from me.

I still disagree. If a player is listed as 4 in the book, and he/she comes on the floor with 40, are we going to give them a pass? "All we're doing is adding a zero." Again, if I was the offended coach, i'd be screaming for the T.

1) Mr. Language Person says that the correct word is "whether".

2) Mr. Mathematics Person says that there are 39 different numbers between 4 and 44, not 40.

3) JR says that he agrees with you on the way that you said that you would have handled this one. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Dam...Jr...give me a brake. I wuz working the nite shift.
Besides, "I ref better then I spell" or add. ;)

You could scream all you want to, you still wouldn't be getting that T...and going from 4 to 4o is definitley not the same as going from 0 to 00...

Well, then, as a coach, I'd guess I'd be respectfully asking the assigned referees, what other rules we'd be suspending that game, so I could inform my players.

No T from me.

If you read the exact semantics of the rule there may be a call here. But the others are right if 4 shows up as 04...
Mark is right about the computer aspects..

Here is a more likely scenario.... The team uses software to generate a line-up , hand it to the book,
it shows 02, 03, 04, 05, 10, 11, 12, 22, 23, 33.
(using much of database software,if they did not put the zeroes in it would sort, 1,10,11,12,13,2,22,23,24,3,4,5...

Now riddle me this batman! So if they report 04 and it is in the book as 04 because that was what was copied down Would you give them a T?

If they were using an (approved by State association)computer scorekeeping system and they entered the numbers using the leading 0, would you call a T? the number in the book is 04, but he is wearing 4...

If you cant have 0 and 00 on the floor at the same time and mathematically they are the same number...

Why go looking for T's?

If it were me no way no how!

How is this suspending the rules? Do you have any ruling that suggests otherwise? Do you have something in the casebook that makes it clear how to interpret this situation? If you do not, then the Referee has the right to rule anyway they see fit without a specific reference to this play. I know if someone spells a name wrong and switches around some letters by mistake, I am not going to T up the team because I see the name on the back of the jersey is spelled differently. You can only have one of these numbers. It is not in the spirit of the rules to give a T when someone clearly made a mistake. If you think that is bad, then I guess we should T up every coach that step a foot outside of the coaching box no matter what. This to me is the very same thing.

Peace

And if I was the assigned referee, I would smile at you, say "That's a good one, coach" and then go toss the ball to start the game...

And I would just as respectfully ask where you got your math degree and suggest you get a refund.

Are cases 3.2.2 A or 3.2.2 B or 3.2.2 D or 3.2.2 E, all dealing with players wearing different shirt numbers than were entered in the score book, relevant? Maybe I misread the first post of this thread, but I thought I read one number was in the book, and a different number was on the player.

0 and 00 are the same number, which is why you can only have one of them.

1 and 11 are different numbers, which is why you can have both of them.

You cannot have a 0 and 00 during the game. If that is the kind of thing that ruffles your feathers, then you are just going to have to have your feathers ruffled. I do not see a ruling that specifically considers 0 and 00 as different numbers. All the rulebook says is that you cannot use both. So as far as I am concerned 0 and 00 are the same. I am not going to split hairs. I am not going to split hairs with this rule. I am surely not going to split hairs with any other rule that happens in the game.

Peace

proof that they are the same number
 

we all know that 11-1 = 10 (1 and 11 are different numbers)
00-0=0 I think that 0 and 00 are the same number : )


No T from me...and there is a post above about a player entered in the book as 4 and wearing 4o....that is a T for two reasons LOL :D

Re: proof that they are the same number
 

That was rookydude. Cut him some slack, he's already told us he was too drunk or something to think staright when he posted.

LOL yeah I know I just thought that 4-o was kinda funny. even though you hear people say just that LOL....

who wants a T
 

I am with FrankHtown on this one. I definitely think that a T is deserving in Franks situation. Beleive me Frank, if you are coaching and wanting a T for this by all means I am going to T you up.

Play the game. If that is the kind of coach that you would be I feel sorry for your players. What other freebies are you out there looking for.

I do not coach. But one of our responsibilities is game management. In pre game introduction, the announcer says, "And wearing Number 0, Joe Smith." So, I'm the opposing coach, and out comes Joe Smith in 00. So I go over to the referee and say, "Ref, Joe Smith was announced as 0, but he's wearing 00. Isn't that a technical foul?" and we calmly explain.....what?

Well, then, as a referee, I'd guess I'd be respectfully answering that we were definitely <b>not</b> going to be suspending the technical foul rules for smart-a$$ answers from coaches, and you could inform your players of that.

Then I'd puke on your shoes. :D

coaches towel
 

then I would throw you the towel off of your coaches chair to wipe it up with.

I don't know my player might not be able to guard number 0 as well as guarding 00 . I think it's an advantage to the offense.

we also would be suspending the use of the coaching box for your team during this game....but I am guessing the players don't really care about that......0=00 I already did the math :D LOL

No T.

Rule 2-3.

Ok, you beat me down. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm still looking for the words to explain to the offended coach why we are not calling a technical, when 0 and 00 are both separate, legal numbers, per 3-4-3.

My non-varsity opinion is probably meaningless here, since I've done two freshman games this year where teams have had as many as two pairs of players with the same number (due to a mixing of Freshman A and B players). We just talk about it beforehand and ask the coach not to put them on the floor at the same time and then we hope they don't foul or it's so late in the game that it doesn't matter.

But if there's a 0 and a 00 (or one in the book and the other on the jersey), you ain't seeing a tech from me. I'm going to look to the ceiling and whistle a happy tune as I walk to the center circle with the ball and if someone else wants to call it, well knock yourself out.

Again, non-varsity opinion.

Poor Frank has been knocked around a bit...

But of course it wasn't Frank that DID call the T...

That was NevadaRef.

What were you thinking? :D

We calmly explain that 0 and 00 are the same number.

What difficult is that? Even a coach can understand it.

That's why you should report the foul on gold THIRTY-THREE, and not gold THREE, THREE.

So if this same announcer mispronounces the kids name and says Joe SYMTHE instead of SMITH you going to throw a T.

Ok I get it now. My game fee is not $60, it's $600. Thanks.

This is why you should verbalize #33 as "thirty-three" rather than as "three-three."

Especially when dealing with any number involving the digits one or two.

Which becomes worse if you have free throws.

I say "Coach, they can announce him as His Majesty Henry VIII wearing number 79 for all I care."

Let's say your game fee is sixty dollars. Which one of these makes a difference?

Situation 1: You get a check for $600.

Situation 2: You get a check made out for $060.

No Tee from me.

A symbolic discussion
 

I work at a university. I believe that I have heard the chair of our mathematics department say something to the following effect: Numbers are merely symbols; they are symbols of values. Thus, in "real life," as well as in "basketball terms," one could say that "0" and "00" represent the same thing of value (in the case of a basketball team, a team member eligible to become a Player). Accordingly, the scenario here does not merit a T from me.

I think, however, that Attorney totalnewbie is absolutely correct about the list of eligible numbers/symbols. This may be a case where both crowds -- to T and not to T -- are within their appopriate 2.3 powers to rule.

Whatever the resolution, I agree that it is a good practice to inform the coach/team/scorer of the discrepency so that they can correct the situation so that it doesn't happen again and therefore confront officials who have not had the luxury, nay the honor, of thinking about this issue after reading this discussion thread....

Now you're simply being stupid.

Isn't it amazing how all of us are wrong and you're the only one who is right?

Re: A symbolic discussion
 

First, there's no such thing as 2.3.

Second, the play has nothing to do with 2-3, if that's what you're referring to. It's clearly defined.

Good officials use common sense.

Facetious and stupid are two different things. I think when we get to the level of name-calling, it's time to pull out of this thread.

Please, for the love of God, do not call a technical foul here. How many times do you have to hear the phrase, "Don't put $#@& into the game..." Can a decent argument be made that the often vaguely worded rulebook would allow for a T in this instance? Of course, but as previously stated, good officials use common sense, and good supervisors and commissioners as well as good coaches appreciate officials using common sense. While you may make a technical argument for issuing the foul, the spirit and intent of the rules would be to fix this matter in the scorebook without penalty and move along.

This is interesting. In addition, it is also very hyper-technical. So it makes sense to me (as a totalnewbie) that people would just fix and move on even if we believe there is an argument for a T.

One problem though with a few posts. We are not calling a foul on "04" we are calling a foul on "4". "04" is not a legal number.

If a person entered with 04 on their jersey, that would be a player T for an illegal number (as opposed to an administrative T for an error in the book or roster, since no legal roster could include an illegal number).

As for those saying 0 and 00 are the same, it seems the text of the rule disagrees. Note, that by the same logic 000 would be the same number. But that is not listed as a legal number. So the rule specifically provides that 0 and 00 are different numbers and are both legal, but that both may not appear on the same roster. The rule DOES NOT say they are the same number and in fact goes out of its way IMHO to say they are not the same.

But all that aside, the guys saying fix it and move on seem to share the opinion of most of the refs I work with. Its like not calling the T for rosters not being in by 10 minutes. If it takes until 9 minutes for it to happen then no big deal. If someone gripes the ref says "coach we would have given you the same leniency."

So for those who said "no T" was that (a) "I dont believe it is a T at all" or (b) "it is probably a T but I am not calling that just like I wouldnt T someone for being 30 seconds late with the roster or some other hyper-technical thing."

And, does it matter it was a V game with playoff implications. Does that change how you handle it?

I can see an argument either way for that: (a) this is varsity level, these are the best coaches, it has been all season now, there is no problem holding them to the highest standard, (b) it is a silly paperwork issue that I am not going to let decide a game of this much importance when it can be fixed with the stroke of a pen by adding a 0.

Clark

Life is full of many choices.
 

You can be a rulebook official and call everything by the rule. Or you can be an official that uses a little bit of common sense. The good officials use common sense. We are not going to see a player with "04" in reality. If you do you better be careful how you apply that rule. I worked a game this year where an urban team had blue jerseys for their varsity team. One of the players wore white shorts which were not in lock step with the rules nor the team. We did nothing. I can take a wild guess that the school could not afford the proper jersey for this one player. Of course you could give T this action, but will it be respected by everyone watching.

You can be a rulebook official and apply all the rules to the letter like coaches box, bench decorum, and every bookkeeping violation to the letter, but it will not make you a very popular official. I realize the coach wants to get a break, but I am sure he gets one when he complains about your calls or when he steps out on the court and does not realize it. I know I do not T up coaches for just a foot outside of the box. I just tell them to get back in. Well if the number is wrong as it relates to 0 and 00, I am just going to have them change it and move on. I really think any good official or respected official is going to try to avoid this kind of T for this particular reason. It is totally different if the number was another number. But even then I am not going to give a T just for what is in the official book. I am going to give a T for what information was given to the scorekeeper.

Peace

oh my god
 

It is amazing that it has taken 5 pages of posts (so far) to try and figure out if mixing up 0 and 00 in the book would be a T. Is there no common sense among those who would ring a team up for this? I would be embarrassed to work with someone who T'ed up a team for this.

Newbie, you need to read more and write less.

00 is widely used in many sports. It is the same thing as 0. Having said that, 04 is the same number 4. It's just simply not used. If it ever came into use, I'm sure the NF would address it. I would not T 00 or 04, AS THEY ARE THE SAME AS 0 AND 4!!!!!! You shouldn't T 04 anymore than you would T 00. So get over that and let's move on.

Good grief! Too many ****ing plumbers on this forum.

Hey dont get mad at me. I'm just discussing someone else's post and I said over and over again that I would love to hear people's opinions on this and that I am a newbie. All I am doing is citing the rule and trying to analyze it.

For me, learning to draw the line is an important part of my growth. That's why I am interested in this discussion. If you're not, great. I dont care that much about the coaching box. If the coach steps out a bit, big deal. I dont care about getting the roster to the book by 10 minutes since in all honesty I am usually working the 3rd game and they probably only put 10 minutes on the clock since the game is 5 minutes behind start time anyway so most people only get the roster to the book well past the 10 minutes. I'm not T'ing that. All I want is my scorer and timer to have what they need in time to start the game in a timely fashion and not have to feel rushed. If they are happy, I am happy.

I agree that being overly scrupulous does not a good official make. But what is the rationale to when you do or do not enforce? That is what I was trying to talk about.

I like this issue because it seems to be a T in a high stakes game. Some people mentioned being a popular official. Is that the standard? I can tell you one guy you would be popular with--the opposing coach whose team actually managed to follow the rules. I guess I never thought popularity was the key. Heck, I havent been popular yet. Both teams hate your calls until one team wins, then the winning team only likes you because they won.

I wonder what NevadaRef's partner said about the call.

It seems to me that the rules clearly make 0 and 00 different numbers so you COULD T it. What I want to know is do you T it and if not why not. So "no and shut up" posts arent that helpful. But then again it isnt your job to help me if you dont want to or to discuss it if you dont want to.

As for 00 being used in lots of sports, great. We're not talking about lots of sports. We are talking about basketball and the rules specifically define legal numbers. If you dont care about this issue, thats cool. Buit 'hey, its used in lots of other sports' doesnt answer the question here.

And according to the rules, 04 is not the same as 4. 4 is a legal number, 04 isnt.

And as for me reading more and writing less, I dont think you are going to be satisfied with my answer on that one :). I read the rule. I wrote about the rule. I was asking for experienced guys to give me their take on my analysis. I intend to continue doing that. I guess "read more write less" isnt really that helpful. But thanks anyway :)

Here is a question for you, if you dont like the 0 and 00 issue: would you T a player with "04" on his or her jersey, since that is not a legal number?

Clark

I would not T this. If asked why, I would tell the coach that 0 and 00 are both zero. He may not like the answer, so what? He won't like a lot of things I do tonight.

The real reason, for me anyway, lies in the definition of the game. Basketball is a game played between two teams of five players. It is not a game played between two coaches looking to twist esoteric points of law into freebie scoring opportunities.

I would not give a T. My reasoning can be found in what has been discussed as the "best quote" of the Violet article...paraphrased as best I can remember: within each black and white rule are a thousand shades of gray, and one can make a technically correct call and be totally unfair.

All night long you will use your judgement to determine what is and what is not a violation or foul. Some you will know are technically a violation, but you pass on it. From the time you take the court...it is all judgement...discretion...the flow of the game...the style of the game. What a coach says at one point might result in a T, but saying the same thing at a different point would not. The only things black and white are the rules and our shirts. Enforcing them is not. My wife has a poster that says: "The rules are just ink on paper. Without us, they are easily bent and broken. We relish the challenge of using them to craft a game fairly played." That sums it up to me.

As I can see absolutely no way that the 0-00 number can be determined to be an advantage or disadvantage to the teams, nor can it have an impact on the outcome of the game (unless I make it possible by calling a T) I see no violation, and I call no T.

Now that is an excellent post. Thanks! In it you stated your philosophy on why you do or do not call the T. I agree that this is about as nit picky as you can get. I'm trying to develop a consistent personal philosophy on calls and this was really helpful.

Clark

It is a slippery slope. Once you start giving Ts based on a very narrow black and white interpretation (and you have yet to show us any interpretation other than your experience which is not that vast at this point) you now might be expected to call other things that are black and white. First of all I know you are not going around giving Ts or calling every violation in a technical way. Now it is not really about being popular, but it is about being respected. A coach is going to wonder what other things you are going to call to the letter if you start trying to prove to him or her you passed the test. At the very least if you are going to be technical, have something that suggests you apply the rules that way.



I could call every touch of a ball handler a foul, but many coaches or evaluators do not want that kind of call. Officiating is not that much different than being a judge sitting on the bench. We keep our jobs by having our decisions or rulings accepted. If our rulings are not respected, it does not matter how right we are, but we might lose our job because our decisions are constantly questioned.

I can tell you if that is the best you can come up with, you would not be working very much where I lived. At least that does not happen at the big time. Where I live common sense is valued big time. I have never seen a jersey with "04" on it. But I have seen some jerseys that did not follow the rule to the letter and officials do not give Ts for them. I remember a sophomore team that had no front jersey numbers. Well according to the rule you have to T up every player that is not properly equip. The officials did the right thing and let it go. It would have been a disaster if they took your logic and just followed the rulebook. The school was an inner city school and did not have other jerseys. The object is to allow the kids to play, not do everything to make it more difficult. Would you start the game with 5 Ts because this team did not follow the letter of the rules? What if the opponent wanted the Ts?


I have already said where I stand. All you have to do is read the rest of this post and you have your answer.

Peace

JR-

Thanks for the reply. Look, dont mistake my devil's advocate position and request for feedback as me saying I love that T. I dont.

I am trying to find the personal philosophy for why I do or dont pass on a T.

We'll probably all agree on this: if it is in the book as a foul or violation, it should be called, particularly if advantage/disadvantage is gained.

Now not a single one of us, I would imagine, actually does this. We all use our discretion. Which is what we are supposed to do.

Heck, I passed on 10 travels last game alone and a some silly hand contact by girls that cant play good defense. And the book didnt have starters 10 minutes before and I didnt T that up either. And when a girl used hands on a cutter I didnt ring her up. Instead I said "watch the hands 32" because the pass didnt come down into the paint it went across the perimiter. No advantage/disadvantage. And at the end of the game when the girl grabbed an arm or waist to take a foul and put the otehr team on the line I said it was close enough to playing the ball and I called a regular foul, not an intentional.

But what are YOUR personal parameters of that discretion? I am trying to find mine. That is why I want feedback on this.

I like the idea of making sure you make calls that are respected so that when things get tight and you have to make a tough charge call on the home team you can make it and it will be recieved right and that way the focus is oon the game and not your calls. I get that. But where do you draw that line? How do YOU balance the need to have your calls respected with the need to make the right calls?

Clark

It must be that we are both attorneys! I once said in one of our association discussions that the specific rule overrides the general rule, and everyone about fell out, except for the other attorney in the group. He just nodded.

If the coach asked me for a T, and asked why I wasn't going to enforce it, I would simply tell him what I have said about advantage in the earlier post, and would add that I wasn't calling it for the same reason I wasn't going to T him up the first time he rose from his chair to shout out an offense or a defense.

I can tell you that if a ref T'd me (or the other team) up for this, it would be one of the games where I shake my head, sit on the bench, and know it's going to be a LONG day!

On the other hand, if the other team made this mistake, and the ref explained to me what happened, I'd laugh it off and say "Let's go jump."

I just can't see a coach having a problem with a ref working to fix the problem instead of penalizing the kids for a minor clerical error.

I think we need you to give a seminar to some of the other coaches then :)

I can already envision 3 coaches I have had in my short experience who I guarantee would be jumping up and down over this. I like BiTS's explanation:

"Coach, basketball is a game played between two teams of five players. It is not a game played between two coaches looking to twist esoteric points of law into freebie scoring opportunities. This is a clerical issue and I am fixing it."

Clark

You had posted while I was typing. As to finding personal parameters, I think that just comes with games and experience. Some things that I called my first year I would not call now. Some things I wouldn't have called my first year I would now. And I think it applies to every area..fouls, violations, game managment, player management, coaches interaction. It is no different than any other job you do in that way. The longer you do it, the more fine tuned you become, the more confident you are, both of which can lead to the more respect you will be given. I think any of the most experienced guys on this board would tell you that what and how they called their first years does not approach what and how they call ten years later.

When I am watching a college game on TV, and see a coach having an anuerism on the sideline, and the ref just calmly talking to him, it drives the point home for me. If that was happening to a first year ref, he would be either wetting himself or he would be hammering out the T's. And here is this ref looking like nothing at all is going wrong. A rookie couldn't manage a coach like that. That is experience, and there is no substitute.

True, there is no substitute for experience. But thinking things through ahead of time and trying to have a clear personal philosophy to fall back on is something I use when I try cases. I like to be squared away and dialed up. So I work through situations like this in my mind so that if it happens I have atleast simulated what I would do. It makes my reaction better and cleaner and more immediate.

Now that I think about it, I am the one sitting here getting all the s*** and I didnt even call the T!!! All I was doing was wanting to talk about it.

Nevada, get back in here! :) Dont tell me you havent been reading this and laughing while the newb takes the beating...

Clark

Well, you apparently suffer from the same odd desire to analyze the event before it happens that I do. I will be driving along, lost in thought, and my wife will say "what case are you arguing?" And she is always right. She never says it and I happen to be daydreaming about vacation. Apparently I make odd facial jestures during my non-verbal delivery of the best darn closing arguments a jury has yet to hear.

As to basketball, I read posts on this board, look at the facts given, and think about what I would have done. And I tevo all the college games, and go back and watch the calls, rewatch the questionable ones in slo-mo, look for the positoning of the ref, etc. If he was wrong, why was he wrong? I look for reasons other than poor judgement, such as could he have been in a better position, did he get straightlined, did he call across the lane, out of his area, etc.? I would submit that it is more helpful to look at someone else's real game actions, and why they occurred, rather than to try to figure out what you would do in a situation that you imagine in your head. There are just too many variables that can't all be accounted for in an imaginary situation that coulda-woulda-shoulda played a part in your call in real life. So, I use other people's games to try to prepare for my own. I also try to get copies of my own games tapes and have someone critique me. Most teams will do this for you (around here anyway) if you provide them a blank tape and an SASE.

I already addressed this question in the post you replied to.

"00 is widely used in many sports. It is the same thing as 0. Having said that, 04 is the same number 4. It's just simply not used. If it ever came into use, I'm sure the NF would address it. I would not T 00 or 04, AS THEY ARE THE SAME AS 0 AND 4!!!!!! You shouldn't T 04 anymore than you would T 00. So get over that and let's move on."

You're attempting to apply the rule to legalisticly in a situation that doesn't affect the game in the least. Call this T if you like but in the end, all you do is end up looking like a plumber.

This is a freaking joke. Of course it's a T. 0 and 00 are specifically stated by the rule book to be different numbers. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say 04 or 02 or any double-digit number starting with 0 is legal.

Next you will be telling me that A1 is wearing 23, but has 32 listed in the book, and the guy filling in the book is dyslexic so no T is to be warranted.

Good call, Nevada. Don't let the so called "experts" tell you any different.

My situation was what if the team submits a lineup using software that requires an 04 to place it in proper order (most databases require) and 04 was written in the book, but the player has a proper #4 on his jersey. Would you call this a T?

No way No How!

Considering one should always check the book before the 10 minute mark, I'd explain to the coach that he has 04 in the book, but 04 is not a legal number, so he had better get it changed. Not a big deal if you're taking care of your pregame business.

Whatever software a team is using doesn't matter to me. Having the book correct does.

What if the line up handed to the scorer had 23 listed as 23, and the scorer entered it as 32, you going to T for that?

So are you telling me that having 04 in the book and 4 on his jersey is a T?

So if Kevin Greene is listed in the book but the name is really Kelvin Green that you are going to whack them because they could not read or cant spell?

Where would this nonsense end?

Give me a break- Common sense says let this go!

See what I mean, Kelvin? :(

Hey Trigger. Riddle me this: If they are different numbers why is it not legal to have 0 and 00 used in the same game? Because it confuses people!!!!! It's kind of like sending a kid out of the game because his shirt is not tucked in when all you have to do is ask him to tuck without leaving. Use some common sense man. No Tee.

Like I said, if the referee is doing his job, there will be no number 04 in the book at the 10 minute mark, because NFHS rules do not allow 04 as a legal number. Therefore, the referee will have the coach correct it. If the coach refuses, it's a T for an illegal number.

Rule 2.4.5 states that one of the referee's duties is to verify with the coach that his team member's uniforms and equipment are legal. It doesn't say anything about the names. Numbers are required on ALL uniforms; names are not.

Gordon--> You'd have to ask the NFHS why both numbers are not allowed. I don't make up the rules, I just enforce them to the best of my ability. I'll say it again...check the book and the 04 problem never comes up.

Which goes back to my very first post on this thread:

And subsequent analysis that one could argue the rules consider them different numbers.

This is a two step analysis and people just want to jump to the end. The steps are:

1. Is it a T?
--if yes, go to step 2; if no, you call nothing.
2. If a T, do you call it?
--this is the judgment part

You can have a discussion about step 1 even if you agree that at step 2 you wouldnt call it.

As for typographical errors, that is a different issue. Here Nevada's issue was 0 was on the roster provided, 0 is in the book. Not a typo. Not entered incorrectly. Not misspelled. And 00 is on the jersey.

Again, I am not saying call the T or not. I havent had this situation and am a newbie. But I like the discussion, particularly as to the judgment part of part 2.

Clark

But 4 on the jersey is a legal number and the coach refuses to change 04 in the book to 4 so you T him up. I'd like to see that in the rule.

The player is playing with a legal number and we whack him because the number in the book is some how illegal and does not match the shirt. I would really like you to explain that to a coach who spent thousands of dollars on the scorekeeping software and then got it approved by the State Association that somehow he is illegal and anybody with single digits that on the compute show up with a 0something is illegal.


I am quoting NCAA here but it is similar to NFHS
---Section 3. Lineup
Art. 1. Before the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that iscounting down the time before the start of the game, each team shall supply the scorers with:
a. Names and uniform numbers of squad members who may par-ticipate,and those of the five starting players.

As I said before this is tanatamount to having a spelling mistake cause a T because for some reason the name is not right!
Lets whack them because I cant spell Coach K's last name! It has to be perfect. It says names have to be submitted, names dont have to be on the jerseys but the names have to be right since they have to match the player on the floor.

Does this mean that I have to have first and last name? Do I need only last one. Do I need middle initials?

The rule book says NAMES and numbers so it is plural... Does this mean the names of all the players who MAY participate? or does it mean multiple names of players players who MAY participate?

So then the next question is who is the one that grants the MAY particpate. Does each player walk up to the ref and ask? May I participate? and we say yes? or does that mean each poetntial player?

Like I said before where does the nonsense end?

I'm not following this software argument? Does software dictate rule enforcement?

[sorry, goofy post. i wrote it too quick. i mean,] how does software relate to enforcement? our jurisidiction is not that plugged in. are there local areas that have rules about software?

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 01:14 AM]

NO but if they are using software that require the leading zero to keep things straight, does that mean we penalize the team, especially if the software system was approved by the state.

I dont think so

1.
This is not a T.
Coach: "That's a T, you've got to give them a T for that."

Me: "Coach. You find me 2 disinterested people who tell you that 0 and 00 are different numbers, and I'll admit it should be a T."

2. I'm not calling it, even if it should be.

And you'd probably get one, too ;)

You may not be around for the opening tip if you go down this path. I've had PGEJs (pregame ejections) in baseball, but never in hoops -- it could be a first.

kelvin

this software issue is interesting to me. our jurisdiction is not that "plugged in." do you guys have local rules about software? what does the software do? i presume it is just for team books. or do you guys have software for the OFFICIAL book? i guess if the problem is team books, i dont care that much. that is their problem.

more info please...

clark

Thank goodness I thought I was the only one.

OK, I've read this entire thread. Can I take my bar exam now? :D

"squared away"
"dialed-up"
"plugged in"
"jurisdiction"

Dude, this is basketball not Boston Legal. Plus, you live in Las Vegas so the most important phrases, phrases that ultimately pay you, are:

"cocktails, drinks"
"let it ride"
"hit me"
"parlay that"

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

applying the rules
 

I don't understand why some of u officials would call a "T" on a team for having 0 or 00. What is the advantage here it would just be more simple if u just inform the scorebook person to either add another 0 to match the uniform and explain why to them.
I would never "T" a team for having #00 when the book has #0 on them I would just ask the scorebook person to change it to match the uniform.

Tell me if am wrong here, most of u veteran officials know the rules pretty good and some of u guys probably have given younger official advice and the #1 advice I have heard from veteran officials is that basketball rules is pretty complicated at times so as a young official I was taught that knowing the rule is one thing but applying it is another, which I have learn how to apply certain situation.
Here is an example, if ur gonna "T" a team for having the #0 or #00 because the scorebook person don't know the different between #0 or #00 and most of these scorebook person are not train or certified to know the rules. So why not just have them corect it and go on with the game.
And for those officials say "T" them up cause thats what the rulebook say than My question is if ur gonna apply everyrule by the book than why the hell do most of u don't "T" up a coach who knows the rule about being seated at all time during the game unless he/she is cheering a good play.
I have seen many games in all levels and Refs have allow coaches to wonder the coaching box so if ur gonna play by the rules and "T" for scorebook error on a uniform than u should "T" the coach too when they are not seated during game time.
Thers alot of other situation that I can bring up where officials do not go by the book. So as a official I will apply the rules base on advantage/disadvantage and I see no advantage in giving a "T" for a roster error when it could be corrected by telling the scorebook person just to add another ) to the players name on the book so it can match the uniform.
If u need more situation let me know I can post up some more where I know most veteran officials will let go and not make certain calls even though the rule book may say different.

Remember knowing the rule is one thing but applying it is another so be consistant if ur gonna officiate by the rule book than do it.

Re: Re: A symbolic discussion
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

First, there's no such thing as 2.3. Second, the play has nothing to do with 2-3....

BktBallRef, thank you for delivering this irony. As you plead for "common sense" to prevail on the court, you insist on literal perfection on the discussion threads. I stand both corrected and entertained! :-)