would like to know the norm for how most schools handle the pay from 2 vs 3 man crews. for example if a 2 man would get $60 apiece, but in a big rival game home management decides to use 3 man, would each get $60 for total of $180, or $40 apiece dividing the $120 purse

Welcome to the forum bellyache. Around here it usually stays about the same. Girls JV/V is going to pay $60-70 wheather it's two or three man (some even pay $50--depending on the school). Same goes for Boys JV/V, some schools in this area hire a three man for some JV games and a seperate crew for the V game. JV, the average is probably around $40-45, 2 or 3 man. If you work the V game, then you are looking at $50-60, 2 or 3 man.

2 man pay vs 3 man pay
 

the reason i ask some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways. this really makes it not worth working v games since most we travel a min of 1 and half hours or more away. we always have seperate crews for jv. we can work jv games close to home and make 40 to 50 or travel, get home later and make 40 to 50. easy math huh!

bellyache, what an appropriate name!
 

Is that why you're in it, for the money?

I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity.

If you don't, you can probably work JV games, close to home, the rest of your career. Just tell your assignor.

Now, I'm not trying to be ugly or cynical but that's what you're sounding like. If your association is truly interested in addressing the situation, then have the assignor tell the schools what the game fee will be for 3 man. Don't let them tell you. "If you want 3 man, it's $XX per official. Otherwise, we send 2 officials."

However, you should expect some pay decrease for 3 man versus 2. If 2 get $60 each, then it's not unfair to expect $50 each for 3 man.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:35 PM]

Yeah around here they just pay for the extra official. Makes it easier and it's fair too. I've actually heard of what you are talking about. Usually what happens around here, if the school only hires two officials but it's a big game. Then, usually the crew who's on it will bring a third and split their checks to the third person.

bellyache, what an appropriate name!
 

hey im not saying that im it to be rich but i certainly wouldn't travel 3 hours each way and bring home $40. i enjoy the big games and the point i am making is the kids will suffer from this practice because the better officials are smart enough to know that 3 hours each way and $40 dollars is not fair and will stop taking these big games.and yes somewhere in the middle would be more fare than a 3-way split

So you'll drive 3 hours each way for $60, but not $40? :confused:

Re: bellyache, what an appropriate name!
 

The only problem with your suggestion Tony is that doesn't work that way around here. In Washington State, the game fees are set at the STATE level. We're on a 3-year trial system and the 3-person fee is basically 2/3rd the pay of a 2-person fee for our officials. Since we are already one of the lowest paid states around, I don't know of a single official in WA that is not irritated and rightly so. The officials I know love doing 3-person but they thought the schools should have had to shoulder a little of the burden too. (so that we were paid a little less for 3-person, but not 1/3rd less). Very few officials in our state are "in it for the money" because it doesn't make financial sense for anyone to do it. You truly have to love the game to want to spend your entire evening at a school (evaluating the JV game etc.) for $33.00 a night, but we do it. However, at some point the pay becomes so low that it's almost insulting. I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity. And I want a little respect too. There is a balance in there somewhere and right now Washington State officials are being asked to shoulder too much of it. We're doing it and for all the right reasons, but that doesn't mean that we think that it's all wonderful and rosy.

Z

I wouldn't do this for free. Yes, I enjoy officiating but I don't think anyone here is getting rich off of it and I don't expect to either. I do expect to be compensated for my effort and at some point the pay can be so low that it isn't worth my time. Some guys around here are willing to drive 2 hours each way to work a varsity game, which is fine. I'm not willing to do that for $60-$70. I do drive up to 45-60 minutes or so one way for a varsity game. Given the option of taking a 1/3 pay cut to work 3 person or continuing to work 2 person for the full fee, I would work 2 person every time. If schools don't want to pay the additional cost of an extra official, don't hire one. I guess each person has their own limits on travel and pay. I would also guess that those that say they don't do it for the money still cash the checks that they receive for each game.

In Okla, there is no set fee, and the individual schools pay different amounts, although our local association encourages us to not work for less than a certain amount to avoid "undercutters". Only the largest classes use 3 man crews, and they get paid less.

If I go work a 2 man game, I will do the girls varsity and the boys varsity, and will make between $85 and $95 total. Same for the partner.

If you go work a 3 man, you do the girls and the boys, and will make about $70 per official.

Jr. Hi games are usually $25 per game, and you do either 3 boys or 3 girls games.

We don't have "assignors" in our area. I go call a game, and the coach or AD says, are you booked for next year? We break out the calendars, take a game or two for next year, and go on, or they call during the season and book you for next season. A few schools will ask one ref to take care of bringing in their officials for the entire season, but very rarely, and usually only jr hi.

The state association makes assignments for playoff games, including the state championship games, all of which pay less than most regular season games.

The more I read about how some other states "do it," the more I feel fortunate to be in the state I'm in. And I never would have thought that was possible, given that most things about this state (just in general) are so bass-ackward.

I agree, maybe it isn't perfect here, but it sure doesn't sound as bad as some other places.
Our difference from 2 man to 3 man is only 4 bucks. ($58/$54)

Re: Re: bellyache, what an appropriate name!
 

That's a totally differtent situation, Z. He said, "...some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways..." Some schools is not the state association. I was addressing his post, not all situations everywhere.

Sounds to me like someone in Washington should have grown some balls before this was ever agreed upon.

Re: Re: Re: bellyache, what an appropriate name!
 

Originally posted by BktBallRef
That's a totally differtent situation, Z. He said, "...some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways..." Some schools is not the state association. I was addressing his post, not all situations everywhere.

<b>
Understood.
</b>

Sounds to me like someone in Washington should have grown some balls before this was ever agreed upon.

<b>
You'd have to understand the dynamics of how Washington State works to realize how this was crammed down our throats (I'm not going to get into the organizational structure of the WIAA and WOA and all that). Basically, we voted down this proposal three years ago (officials were willing for <i>some reduction </i>in pay to do 3-person, but not 1/3rd less). The schools said, "we're happy with 2-person and we don't want 3-person if it costs us one penny more."

The WIAA/WOA waited 3 years and then crammed what we rejected (3-person using the 2-person rate split 3 ways) down our throats. Long story.... basically, officials aren't happy about the fees or the process, but 3-person is good for the game and for the athletes and since 90% of the officials ref for the "right reasons," we are all just biting our tongues (for the most part) for 3 years. There is no process for officials to challenge a WOA/WIAA decision. After the 3-year trial period, rates will go up if the schools decide to adopt 3-person. If not, it's back to 2-person for regular season and 3-person for district and state.

Z

since 90% of the officials ref for the "right reasons,"
 

What are the "right reasons"?

I don't want to come off as a jerk since you can tell by my posts that I haven't been around the forum. However, as a licensed official for 17 years, I do have the experience.

There are refs who work the games for money. As stated, those who don't do it for the money seem to take the money anyway.

Some do it to stay close to the game.

Some do it for a challenge.

Some do it because it is fun.

Some will say they do it for the kids. This one gets me because it goes back to the paid idea. There are some who do games for free at clubs and such. They must be doing it for the kids because my time to myself and my family ranks much higher than officiating for free.

I've read enough in this forum to realize a few of you are going to rip me apart for posting something like this, but I truly get tired of hearing guys say they do it for the kids. They might like to be around them and that may be a better answer.

So why do I officiate? Well, I officiate school ball because it is the challenge. Every play is a challenge. Every call and non call is a challenge. Handling coaches is a challenge. The environment in schools from JH to Varsity is fun. The money is okay to offset my time and travel.

Why do I officiate AAU? Money. Sorry, $20 to $25 a game and doing 4 to 6 a day is a good day's work, plain and simple. HOWEVER, all the challenges are still there, and that is what makes it enjoyable.

YOU!!! I have been saying this for years. :D

The state telling schools what to pay officials. The official's association telling officials what basketball games they can and cannot work. In this state we can work anywhere we want to and anywhere we do not. Some conferences or schools pay more money than others, but I do not do it for the money. I just want my expenses covered. Gas is not getting any cheaper. To constantly clean my uniform also costs money and to buy new stuff cost money. I also put an enormous amount of mileage on my car I would not if I stayed home and watched basketball rather than officiate it. Just like any skill we should be paid for the time we spend doing it. I just do not get bent out of shape over 10-15 dollars. If I did I would try to work all the college I could get my hands on. Even then I would drive myself crazy trying to get upset over 10-15 dollars.

Peace

Re: since 90% of the officials ref for the
 

Anything that has to do with the love of the game. Most officials I know are like me... they could stay a half hour after work and make more money than the game fee and travel they get for spending the 6 hours that it takes once they leave for the game until they get home that night.

If we didn't get paid at all, I'd still do some games... just not 2-5 nights a week because I couldn't hand my wife a vacation check at the end of the season to help make up for the nights I'm gone.

I know people who do it for the money and IMHO, they aren't doing the H.S. game any good.

Z

Then I guess it would be fair to say you wouldn't do it if it cost you money, right?

Well, it does cost me money to officiate some days.

I officiate in WA...same as zebraman...and he is correct in stating that we had no say in our fees being reduced by 1/3 because we went to 3-whistle.

All of our leagues around here, the southwest part of the state, do 3-whistle...all the way from B to 4A.

(The following happened to me last week...I don't know if I'm bragging or complaining) ;)

We voted in a new assignor for our association this year.
He is doing an excellent job...but, he
has a slightly different philosophy than our retired assignor from last year.
Our new assignor feels that the top officials should be working on a slow night...even if it is a B school. He also feels that the top officials should "see" every school.
Our old assignor might "throw a bone" to some of the up and comming officials, and give them a small school Varsity game to keep them happy, etc.
As a result...I am "seeing" schools that I have not worked in 10 years. i.e. small christian schools, private schools and some out of the way B schools.

Anyway...I was scheduled to work a small country B school last tuesday night with two other officials in my association. They have been around for 15+ years and weren't exactly looking forward to it.
The team is not very good (lost by 50) and it was a long drive (1 hour)in the fog. On the way up one of my partner's said, "If I was driving, I would turn around...they could just get the girl's officials to do our game. This road is to dangerous." (In fact, a car rolled over on the way home and we had to dodge emergency vehicles while driving down the long hill from the school)
I kept driving and we made it uneventfully.
As I stated the game was a blow out, the teams were bad, and the driving conditions sucked.
I could have turned in the game and worked overtime where I work and made $480. But no...I worked the game and made $30 bucks (plus mileage)...I lost money.
But, you know what...I still have fun doing this advocation. It gets in our blood. There are a lot of reasons we do this...one of them could be the competition.
Yes, us competitive people like it to see how far we can go. Is that for the "wrong reasons"...heck, I don't know, but for me, it is only one of the reasons.
Ok, enough rambling...btw, I'm at work getting paid right now to ramble about officiating...What a life! :D

Nevada is $55 per official for 2-man and $45 per official for 3-man. Both are paid the same travel.

in Alabama, the state sets the maximum amount any local association can charge a member school for each level of play (Varsity down to Junior High). The state also requires all varsity level games be 3 man crews.

The state allows schools the option for 2 or 3 man crews on all sub-varsity level games.

However, our local association made some concessions the first couple of years on all sub-varsity level games. The fee for Junior High games was $25 a game. $25 x 2 (officials) = $50. Our local association board convinced all of our contracted schools to allocate $60 per game, $10 increase ($20 per official), so that our newer/younger officials could get trained working 3 man mechanics which will hopefully have them much more prepared to make the jump to the varsity level a lot quicker.

We then contracted for the full price (25 per game) for a year, then, the following year proration hit the schools statewide. Our schools were looking for every possible place they could to save $$, so they wanted to go back to 2 man. Again, they agreed to allow $60 per game instead of $50 and keep the 3 man crews. We're now back to $25 per man a game on 9th grade and lower, $30 on JV, and $35 for Varsity.