This is my first post but I've really enjoyed and learned from reading now for a few weeks.

Wanted to get some opinions on the following situation I had the other night. Boys frosh, visiting coach riding us a little bit in first half, most noticeable of which was when I called a foul on his player when he wanted a held ball. His player was directly behind his opponent and reached completely around, I called the contact on the reach for the foul. Coach wanted an explanation...."I had the contact first coach"......but next trip down as I pass by I hear "Unbelievable you could miss that call down there"...I let it go.

2nd half I call a foul on visiting team and the offender slams both hands on the floor in disgust at himself or the call, I don't know which. I T'd that action. The personal plus the T gave him 5. As I'm informing the coach he calls me over and asks what he said. "I don't think he said anything,he slammed the floor with both hands in disgust". Coach: "Well, I'm getting disgusted that I can't get a call down there". Me: "About thirty seconds to go on your substitution, coach." (and I start to walk away). Coach: "What? You're not going to talk about it anymore?". Me: Shake head no, I'm now about 15 ft. away and continue to walk. Coach: "Make sure your name is in the book!" (I guess some sort of reference to a complaint to be filed or to have his AD avoid me).

Only other incident was later I granted home team a timeout, he thought they didn't have control. I was headed to explain to him but was reporting the TO to table first, so my partner beat me with the explanation. The coach says with a glance in my direction......"good explanation, that's all I wanted was an explanation." (Note that I gave him his explanation of the T on his player and he was, IMO, just complaining.....see above)

I tend to communicate with coaches as little as possible as it tends to distract me from calling the game. Should I have let him engage me in conversation when I walked away? Should I have T'd him at any point for any of his comments? I don't want to be aloof, but I'm just not real good at having running converasations while the game is on.

It's really been a pretty good year with coaches. One T all year for the bench, one for a player (noted above). But, games like the other night can make me question if my "hands-off" philosophy with coaches is always best.

If a coach is riding my partner and I the whole game I wont give him an explination. I dont know if it is just me, but I dont like when coaches question my calls.

Better get used to it, cause you won't do a game where something like this won't happen. Best advice, as long as the coach doesn't make an *** out of himself or is screaming at the top of his lungs, I don't care, I will still talk to him or explain something to him.

Maybe I'm getting tired towards the end of the season and I am older than most of the coaches I call for, but the name in the book comment would have been the last straw for me. I was asked the other night if I wanted to see the tape so I could see where I missed the call. It was a quick T. Others on this site thought it wasn't a T'able offense and I don't necessarily disagree with them. I normally take a lot from coaches and try to hear what they are saying and internally assess myself to see if they may be right; however, the name in the book comment is one of those I think is a direct comment designed to show you up. I can think of some witty things to say back in this case but I would never do that in a game. I think a simple technical and seat belt for the coach will work here.

closely_guarded
 

i would think most officials would agree that most officials are different. and the coaches know this. i sorta enjoy when a coach challenges me in a respectful way. i am confident of my knowledge of the rules thus dont mind being questioned. however i will not let a coach think he can use me to make a side line show. and i certainly wont let one get personnal with myself or my partner. we are a team and i expect my partner to demand respect for me as i do for him and myself. i have found that alot of times it smooths a situation to be very light hearted when communicating with a coach but will also let them know they have come close to crossing the line. i try to treat them with
respect as long as possible though.

My advise is don't look for reasons to explain calls. If you have something funky fine, but I'm not intitating ANY explanations for judgment calls.

If a coach has a question, I'll give something during a dead ball or on the fly, but I'm NOT explaining on statements, and I'm not explaining EVERY call.

A coach going to the explanation well more than a couple of times is getting the, "Time to coach your players and leave the officiating to me," warning.

The coach in your post was using all the coaching tricks, he was working you, questioning you, he even went with divide and conquer when your partner beat you to the timeout explanation.

If I'm working that game with you, I'm whacking him for the name in the book statement, so he can have both our names.;)

You will suffer for a hands off approach, because coaches will view it as weakness. They will see it as either arrogance or you are intimidated, and will use both against you.

If you are not good at focusing on the play and communicating with the coaches at the same time work on it. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I"ll talk to you at a more appropriate time coach."

Blindzebra is right on with this one IMO. The name in the book comment would've been automatic for me because it's personal. To me that's bordering on a flagrant T because it's an attack on my integrity made in a threatening manner. The earlier situation where the coach harped on a call after you gave an explanation is at the edge and is worth at least a warning ("Coach that subject is closed," etc). That's where it seems things came a bit unglued, you allowed him unchecked to take potshots at you and they simply continued and got worse. Sounds like he was testing to find the line and never found it. I think veteran JV coaches will do this to younger officials because they think they can intimidate

I mean this in a constructive way. You need to recognize the difference between when a Coach is being a jerk and when he has a reasonable question that deserves an answer. One that comes up often is block/charge. If the Coach saw it differently tell him what you saw. If it's not appropriate to communicate tell him you'll get back to him when you have a chance.

Really when you get right to it there's not much to talk about. Coach I answered your question it's time to move on.
I find that the vast majority of time that they just want to know that you're listening. That being said don't let them abuse you. If you have to take care of business you gotta do what you gotta do.

I'd give him warning for that. Generally when the coach starts riding you he's trying to push the line to see how much you'll let him get away with. Stop him early.

If you've already given him a warning, that last comment is certainly T worthy. The fact that you were at least 15' away means that he must've said this pretty loud.

Remember the T is a foul just like any other, one that I feel is under used.

Now in no way am I trying to sound T-happy (I worked it out and last year I gave T's to less than 5% of coaches;)), but a lot of situations about game management have been posted on this board lately, and in my opinion a T would have made a practicle solution.

I've had (knock wood) a good year with coach's. It is amazing their view's from the bench. Balls not dropping, players not responding, turnovers flaring ... in short the great game of basketball.

There are two factors on the floor they try to gain influence on 1) the opponent and 20 the referee's and their calls. Much of it is venting, a lot is frustration, frequently it is theatrics, commonly it is strategy.

It's part of the game.

Coach's are expected to win with their team. Referee's are expected to be rules enforcers. You kno wthe addage about half empty - half full. Some coach's blame referee's for everything, others are not programmed for blame shifting.

And if you look under rule 10, you'll find the coach's rule, another rule that we need to enforce.

SECTION 5 COACHES' RULE
ART. 1 . . . The head coach must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:

a. Rise and stand in front of his/her seat to request a time-out or to signal his/her players to request a time-out.
b. Confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.
c. Replace or remove a disqualified/injured player, or player directed to leave the game, within 30 seconds when a substitute is available, while within the confines of his/her bench.

PENALTY: (Art. 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. (Art. 1b, c) If the error is not correctable under 2-10, or if the mistake as in 5-8-4 cannot be prevented or rectified, a 60-second time-out is charged (or one 30-second, if that is the only type remaining).

ART. 2 . . . The head coach and assistant coach(es) must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:

a. Confer with bench personnel and players within the confines of the bench area during a charged time-out or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
b. Attend an injured player when beckoned onto the court by an official.
c. Rise in front of their seat to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a member of their team or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to their seat. (See 1-13-2)

PENALTY: (Art. 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach.

ART. 3 . . . The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification.

PENALTY: (Art. 3) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. Penalized if discovered while being violated.

NOTE 1: When the coaching box is being utilized as in 1-13-2 Note, the first technical foul charged directly or indirectly to the head coach results in loss of coaching-box privileges and the coach shall comply with the provisions of 10-5-1 and 10-5-2 for the remainder of the game.

NOTE 2: The third technical foul or the second technical foul charged directly to the head coach or a single flagrant foul results in disqualification and ejection. Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Failure to comply with the rules of ejection may result in the game being forfeited.

Re: Coach's Rule
 

Isn't there something there about comments made for the benifit of the officials? Or is that somewhere else in rule 10?? I don't have my book with me so I'm not exactly sure.

Re: Re: Coach's Rule
 

10-4 applies to the head coach as well other bench personnel, see case play 10.4.1.E, so if a coach is up and not following the restrictions in 10-5 a T is called for by rule.

If they are up outside the restrictions of 10-5 and committing any of 10-4-1 a thru f a T is certainly deserved.

Game, or coach, management is definitely not an exact science. Should you have T'd him for the name in the book comment? Depends. Depends on the game situation at that point - was it "the last straw" or just a continuing dialouge that you allowed up to that point? Yes, allowed even though you might have wished he would quit and gotten to coaching.

I agree with most of the comments that the coach was either testing you, pushing your limit, having a bad day, or simply a jerk, but you (and your partner) let him get on with his playing or otherwise he wouldn't have gone that far.

One aspect to consider is that the coach seemingly did not take you seriously that you were quickly approaching your "limit" - let him know. Apparently your communicating with him wasn't working, so either T him up or walk away as you did (very difficult to argue with silence). But either way, be firm and confident.

A direct T on a coach is a powerful call - one more and it's off to the locker room. But be careful that you don't use it to retaliate, out of anger, or as a threat. If he's earned it, let him have it; but you've got to determine if it's warrented or not.

Good luck and hang in there (I wouldn't have T'd him but would certainly let my partner know that I was at the limit - next comment by him and I'd expect my partner to either T him or make absolutely certain the coach knew "ENOUGH")

Thanks for all the constructive replies. Great thing about officiating is there's a next game to go out and put to practice what you've hopefully learned.

I had a game recently where the visiting team was from another part of the state. The visiting team coach implied almost from the beginning that he was getting hommered. Now it was not very obvious that was what he was saying, but it was clear in the accumulation of his comments. I came to him when I had a chance and confronted him without anyone knowing it. I was the Center on a ball about to be put in and I told him in no uncertain terms, "I have no problem with you complaining about calls, but I grew up an hour away from your school, I am not going to have you question the integrity of my crew." Now I said all this to the coach while my back was basically facing him or I was standing right beside him. I never turned around or looked at him directly. So no one even knew I was having much of a conversation with him. The coach quickly backed down and tried to suggest that he was not complaining about me. I said to him, "Coach I do not care, you complain about my crew member and you are talking about me. I am not going to tolerate you questioning the integrity of my crew again." The coach got the message because he did not make any similar comments the rest of the game. Now he did get upset and he did complain about individual calls (so was the other coach so I have no problem with that) but he did not talk about foul counts or what his kids could not do the rest of the night. This coach even at one time said that, "My two All-Americans are sitting on the bench because you guys keep calling fouls." I did not hear that comment and if I did I probably would have laughed. Only one of his players was anything of an All-American, the other was too young to probably be considered at that point. It was a fun game but a game where I learned more about how to handle coaches.

Peace

Welcome to the forum, closely_guarded. I thought I'd share my own experience, with the hope that it will be helpful to you (and maybe others reading). When I started officiating (I'm in my 8th year now), I almost never talked/communicated with coaches. I felt like it was my job to officiate the game and their job to coach; and I did not believe I owed them any explanations other than making my calls/signals clear so that they could understand my rulings. I believed that I had a thick skin, and I sought to "prove it" by ignoring everything that was said to me. Very quickly, I had rules knowledge and excellent mechanics. Not quite as quickly, :-), I came to realize that more is needed from us, from me.

Particularly as we "move up," people skills are enormously important. One of my mentors told me earlier this year that, when I first started, some experienced coaches and officials thought I looked "intimidated" on the court. I never felt intimidated, but that was my reputation. Looking back on things, I think that reputation was earned by not communicating (and not issuing well-earned Ts).

Each of us is different. We have to be true to our personalities (because being genuine is an important component of our credibility). For me, I know that I'll never be a schmoozer or funny guy (characteristics that some officials are able to carry off in a professional manner; characteristics that some display unprofessionally). Perhaps like you, I'll probably always tend to communicate less than more. But I have learned that it is *really* important to communicate. It often helps if, early in the game, you can help to set the tone. In response to your coach's "unbelievable that you missed that call down there" comment, I might have tried a "you've got to let that go, coach," but only if I could say that while he sees me smiling - not a smart-aleck smile, but a warm, slightly empathetic smile. If I couldn't do it with a smile (like if you're running by and there's no dead ball in the near vicinity), I think I'd pass and say nothing.

As for the stuff following the T on his player, remember that the mechanic now is to let the non-calling official inform the coach. If you had followed that mechanic, the whole situation *might* have been avoided. Of course it might not. The coach still might want an explanation from you. But let's say that things happened as they did to you. After you gave him your it-wasn't-what-he-said-it-was-what-he-did explanation and he gave you his "well, I'm disgusted" comment, I think there were basically two good options. First, particularly if the coach said this loudly, you might have given him a T. Second, and this is the option I would *prefer* (but in the circumstances may not work), you might have said something like: "Get your substitution in, coach, and while my partner administers the free throws, I'll talk to you." If his next move is something other than going to get a substitute, you might then say "OK, coach, I gave you a shot" and turn and walk away. If he continues calling after you (almost regardless of what he says), he may be earning a T at that point. If he complies and gets the substitute in, you might then say to the coach: "OK, you've got my full attention." If he is loud, remind him to lower his voice - this is a conversation only between the two of you. Etc. Examples like this could go on.

I do not presume to be able to handle coaches more effectively than others. I just have become convinced that it is important to be able to do so and now I'm working at that part of my responsibilities as I continue to pursue rules knowledge and improve mechanics. I hope you continue to do the same. Not only because it will make you a better, and more successful, official, but I'd like to also respectfully submit that it may even make you a happier official!

Best wishes.

The topic of dealing with coaches is one that pops up from time to time and I think we can all benefit from it. In a previous thread, we discussed the ideology that many times coaches just want to be heard. In these cases, a simple "I hear you coach" or "We'll look for it" or even a "We'll keep working hard for you" can go a long way to smooth the relationship between coaches and officials.

Communicating with coaches is something that I'm working on to improve. I think the pregame meeting in many ways can set the tone, from my experience. I think officials who say too much in the captains or the coaches meeting get themselves into trouble. Some of the comments I've heard such as, "We'll work really hard for you tonight," invite uncomplementary comments later. Also, discussing how certain play situations will be handled also are too binding and often come back to bite, for instance, "We'll try to talk you out of fouls," "We're gonna focus on handchecking," and "Don't expect a whistle if you initiate contact on a shot," are really bad things that I've heard said in pregames and have been used by players and coaches to impact the integrity of the crew.

A good communicating tactic that worked for me last Friday in a BV game, working with another young official I learned here. When the coach A had "questions" about the way team B played defense the last time they played, I included coach B in the discussion. It got across to coach A that even though we were young officials that he would not be able to work us and to coach B likewise that we would communicate with both coaches and that trying to work us in that way could backfire. As a result, not a peep out of either coach for the entire game.

I don't understand. Why would you measure this and how? If you give 2 Ts is it a good year? How about 20? Coaches like players earn what they get and whether I'm having a good year or not with the coaches has no bearing on how good of a season I've had. This isn't even something I want to measure. An unemotional/deserved T is something that is easy to forget.

Answerr legitimate questions and ignore comments.

Last summer in a meeting Joe Forte asked the Georgia Tech coach if he ever realized that a new ref doesn't respond because they don't know what to say. The coach never thought about it before and it made sense to him. It happens when someone is new or new at that level. It just takes time to reach the comfort zone.

Before discussing the coach communication, might I add a thought about the technical foul? I won't disagree with your assessment that it was unsportsmanlike behavior that, in some instances, should result in the foul. But, in your comments you even suggest that the floor slapping might have also been as a result of his own frustration for committing the silly foul. Could you have saved yourself by giving him the glare instead of the instant technical? Often, I can give the evil stare and a player will quickly offer an apology and say "I'm just mad at myself." Even if that's not entirely true, you've made your point and drawn the line so you're absoultely covered if he does it again. You can then take the opportunity to politely explain to the player and/or coach that essentially a "mulligan" has been issued.

This would have prevented you from immediately fouling out a player with back to back fouls. Again, I don't know the game situation; maybe the player had been troublesome during the contest and deserved it. I just wanted to add a little to your thought process in terms of game managing preventative officiating.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the problem rears its ugly head when, later on in the game, a player for the other team does something similar, or slightly worse, then you have set a precedent with a warning "look", so does that mean you owe this team a warning "look" as well? You paint yourself, and possibly your partner, into a corner with warnings sometimes.

It's hard to comment on specific situations when one has not been involved personally, but I will say this;
What has helped me tremendously is that I have learned the buzzwords and phrases, i.e. Disrespectful address, unsporting act, unsportsmanlike behavior, validity etc. Being able to define these phrases in my mind helped me decipher what should and should not be allowed and by having defined boundaries my communications with all entities has had a foundation.

Agreed smitty, but I, and most of the partners I work with, have no problem granting the same amnesty to the other side once as well. After that, nobody can complain when we start taking care of a problem that the players and coaches couldn't fix themselves. I think the problem would start if either side continued to do silly stuff after getting the free pass and we continued to issue the stern warnings. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Despite tomegun's metrics-based objections, I'd have to say that I'm having a pretty good year with coaches too. That's not something I measure in T's (I think I had two coach T's last year and probably have one this year). It's just something I have noticed. Last year I could expect to *have* to deal with a coach during most games. This year, very few coaches have gotten adversarial with me. To me, that's a good year.

Closely_guarded, I'll tell you two things I think have made the difference this year. One is a measure of self-confidence that I didn't have last year. Some of it is learning the speak the language. Some of it is time and experience. Some of it is feedback I've gotten in the off-season about my actual ability to officiate. Some of it is validation because I "moved up" this year.

Second, and probably more important, I realized that when a coach goes off it usually happens like an earthquake. A lot of pressure builds up, with no release, then it all goes at once. The longer the coach goes without relief, the bigger the release will be. So you want to communicate with coaches as often as they need it. Acknowledge that you hear them. Answer their legitimate questions. Let them vent a little. If you can have a bit of a laugh with them, do it. When it's appropriate, enlist them in settling down their players and getting the game under control. Don't let them abuse you, of course. As has been said, sometimes they're probing you to see where your line is: let them know. It's just business.

Be warned, sometimes it can all backfire. But I would rather learn a painful lesson from having tried and failed, than go year after year enduring the pains that come from not trying.

BTW, I would have T'd the coach for the name in the scorebook comment. It was a blatant attempt to threaten or intimidate you. Remember, your presence is required for the entire game. His is not. :)

Wow! Talk about some helpful replies. Thanks, guys. I'll just add a couple things, since I started all this......

1) As far as using the # of T's as a metric...yeah, that's probably not the greatest measure because a deserved T left uncalled such as I had the other night can cause you trouble. I guess what I was really thinking was my game management must not be entirely askew because I haven't had a lot of problems this year. The other night was definitely the exception (<10%) of how this year has gone. It's the occasional "problem" coach that I must handle better, and this discussion has really given me some tools to work on that.

2) bgtg19----thanks for the reminder on the 5th foul mechanic. Could've made a difference, or maybe not, but definitely I'll follow it next time.

I've found that 9 times out of 10, when I approach a player and tell him that now would be a good time for him to calm down, he does.

"32, I need you to take a second and calm down." I used that the other day in a very intense 8th grade boys game, and it worked well.
The glare has worked well, also, but the player has to be paying attention to this.
If you have a coach who is coaching the kids instead of critiquing the officiating, you can generally approach the coach quietly and say something to the effect of, "Coach, you might want to have 43 tone it down." He'll either know what's going on (from experience) or ask what he did.

Based on a game that I did today and a lesson that I learned, I disagree with this philosophy of passing on T'able offenses, although I understand the logic. In my BJV game it was an urban game between two of the roughest schools in the area. Game went smoothly until team A built a commanding lead in the 4th. Team B began getting frustrated and my partner had a holding foul against Team A, team B's player, out of frustration kind of swung his elbow late, we closed and passed on a potential T. On the last play of the game, team B player has a layup and we have a flagrant foul against A1 who just leveled him, and we were lucky to get in and control the situation before a fight broke out. I don't know, but maybe the T would've been a tone setter and we could've prevented the flagrant.

That struck me as funny for some reason. Not the type of funny where I would be upset just funny. I guess in my career field metrics has came up many times and to put it in a sentence about a post I made is "funny" to me. :D

Way to go. That's how it's supposed to be done...defend the honor of your crew. Kudos to JRut.

BTW, shame on you guys for calling the fouls that THEY committed. LOL

So now a player from the other team also gets 1 "get out of jail free card"? ie: doesn't like the call, slaps the floor and offers an immediate apology. I would rather not give him the T that he earned but hey, if he wants it, then who am I to refrain?

In my capt mtg, I will get eye contact and while nodding my head usually say: "you know who your hot-heads are, you keep em in control so we don't have to". They will begin nodding their head and now I know we both understand what I just said. If something like a floor slap happens and that capt is right on top of his teammate, I'll allow him to handle it.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Feb 1st, 2005 at 08:55 AM]