OK, Heres the situation. I'm a ref plus I asst. coach a 6th grade girls travel team. Our game today had very bad officials, but I bit my lip and didnt say anything during the game. The coach for our team was more than a little mad at some of the calls and was letting the refs know about it. So after the game "we lost by the way by 6" we were getting are stuff together to leave. When one of the refs comes over to us and says I quote "tough game huh?" coach says yeah but you guys didnt help. The ref comes back with I quote again "If you didnt hound us the whole game, you might have got some of the calls to go your way!" I was shocked. We both just looked at him and walked away. So my question is to you do I do something about this ref or do I just let it drop and say he might have had a bad day. thanks

Why would you do anything about it? Your head coach was wrong for "letting the refs" know about the "bad job" they were doing during the game. What good did that do other than make it harder on the officials?

Maybe the ref shouldn't have approached the coach after the game, but his comment of "tough game huh" makes me think he just felt kinda bad and was trying to be nice. Then the head coach turned it into an adversarial conversation with his comment. So the official then gets a little bent and says something in response which he maybe shouldn't have.

If I was you (being a ref and knowing how hard it can be), I'd be more concerned about the behavior of the head coach than a ref who just got rode during the game and then had a sarcastic comment directed his way afterwards.

Z

Sixth grade girls huh?

With a head coach that was mad and letting the refs "know about it" during the game- and was also laying the blame on the officials after the game was over.

Yeah, I'd report both of those officials. Serve 'em right if it cost them a chance at the Final Four this year.

Did you ever think that you mighta been assigned maybe not "bad", but maybe fairly new officials who are just learning? Assignors have been known to do that sometimes with 6th grade girls games.

The officials made a mistake in initiating a conversation after the game instead of just getting t'hell outa there. Doing that gives an unsporting jerk like your head coach a chance to hop in there with his unsporting comments. The officials were also completely wrong in making their other comments too after the game. Hopefully, the officials learned a lesson from that and will now keep away from coaches after a game and also keep their mouths shut. I mean, what were they thinking? They didn't really expect to find a little "sportsmanship" in a 6th. grade girls game, did they?

Btw, your head coach is a jerk. Didya ever think of maybe reporting <b>him</b> for his behavior?

Sounds like the official, head coach, and asst. coach could all use some maturity.

Nobody is going to care about the outcome of a 6th grade girl's (or boy's) game. When are you coaches going to learn that no one working those games is worried about the outcome of these games? Of course the players and parents would like to win and have a fair game, but these kids will forget about the game in a year (or much less of time). No one is going to be talking about 20 years from now about some traveling game when they were that young. No coach is going to make the hall of fame coaching those teams or that level. The officials are not going to remember the outcome or care as their career progresses. I understand that you want to win and you want to have the game called fairly, but who really cares? I read these stories all the time about how the officials screwed a team and the last time I checked there is no money riding on these games. Las Vegas does not have a line on the local travel league. You are lucky if you get just a warm body to work these games. And as official like I continue our career, your attitude as a coach is the very reason I would not want to waste my time working your games.

Let it go. Who cares what the officials said. No one is going to remember after the season anyway.

Peace

ok ok ok
 

ok i can understand as a ref what they were going through. But as a coach I can also see our coaches point as well. Maybe i worded it wrong, our coach wasnt being a real a.ss just being a coach. Ive been there so has everybody else on this board, but I would never, NEVER call or not call fouls on a team just because of their coach. thats just how he said it after the game, that he called it that way!! and We werent being inmature as others have stated just coaches who did not appreciate how the game was being called.

chrs_schuster,
How about giving 10-15 examples of what they kicked?
Thanks.
mick

Re: ok ok ok
 

I do not know what your experience is as an official, but I know I have been accuse of doing that when the last thing on my mind was what the coach said or did to me. I officiate how I see fit and let the chips fall where they may. But this was a 6th grade girl's games. I am going to probably bet that the officials were not the most experienced officials in the world. If they are experienced, then they probably are not the most successful at the other levels. Maybe this is why they are there. If they are used to making comments like that, this could be a telling sign as to why they were working the game.

I agree he should not have made that comment. Again, this was a 6th grade basketball game. This was not on national TV with the entire country watching.

Peace

Re: ok ok ok
 

I've done it a lot in kiddie leagues. The coach keeps yelling that traveling, call traveling.

So I do, only on his team.

Then he wants to complain.

Same song, fifth verse etc.,

As others have said, the coach was obviously taking this a little too seriously. Once the game is over, its over.

The kids played the game, not the officials. Spend as much time fine tuning your coaching as you do crticizing the officials and then you might have a better outcome next time.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: ok ok ok
 

Really? Shame on you.

There are more effective (and ethically appropriate) tools at your disposal to control the coach's behavior. Address the coach verbally and let him know that his conduct will not be tolerated. (Universal stop sign) If s/he fails to comply... assess the T.


AGREED.

What was your team's shooting percentage?

How many free throws did you miss?

How many offensive rebounds and put backs did you give up?

How many turnovers did you have?

How many points off those turnovers?

As an official you should know better.;)

That's the only part of the scenario that means anything at all.

A little perspective needed, I think... :rolleyes:

Now 6th grade are they 11 12 or 13 year olds

Further post will follow answer

This is the key. Official was out of line to imply that he calls things based on whether or not he likes the coach. But head coach was also out of line to imply that the refs ought to be helping his team. Asst coach could be the moderator here, by stepping up and talking to head coach about his attitude. The mature thing for this official is to walk away when the game is over. Even if he doesn't do that, and initiates the converstaion, it would be mature to walk away when the caoch says "It's your fault." Asst cant control the ref, but could suggest to head coach that walking away would also be mature and appropriate for the head coach.

In other words, Chris, I think your concern is well-founded, but there's not much you can do about the ref. Talk to your head coach about "rising above it" and "setting an example for the players" and help him learn to do that. It'll be far more helpful for your team than any complaints about the ref.

Well, I'm going to place the blame squarely on the official for one thing. He didn't follow the Mick mantra -- get in, get done, GET OUT. Did he think he was going to get a compliment from the coaches? Or perhaps a cookie?

Or maybe he meant that your coach was making it difficult for them to focus and make good decisions with his complaining, therefore they kicked some calls that otherwise would have gone your team's way. In the absence of the distraction, who knows?

Of course, many will tell you that there is more than one way to handle a coach who is behaving poorly. There is the rule book way (technical foul, notice I did not say a warning, since that isn't in the book!) and there are "other" ways.

You may have just run into one of those "other" ways.
I know that if I have a coach whose behavior is wonderful on one bench and a coach who is not well-behaved on the other, I definitely want to make sure that the coach who is behaving properly gets just as many calls. I certainly don't want him to feel like he has to start squeaking to get the grease. That would only encourage all of the coaches in the area to complain.

If you have a good example, I say reward him. That doesn't mean that his team should get unmerited benefits, but certainly don't penalize HIS team.

Re: ok ok ok
 

Really? What's the difference?

Your coach was an ***. The official was an ***. Therefore, if you're going to "turn in" the official for what he said, then you have no choice than to also turn in your head coach? Are you prepared to do both? If not, drop it.

Let it go...
 

This is coach to coach. Let's try an exercise:

1. Review your game and chart all the turnovers your kids made.

2. Then chart all the uncoverted scoring opportunities: missed lay-ups, missed free-throws, missed shots, missed stick-backs, etc.

3. Then chart the difference in rebounding between you and your opponent.

4. Then chart all the questionable adjustments and substitutions you made.

5. Then chart all the "bad" calls made by the officials in your game. If they are really bad, you need to adjust it for "net" bad calls, because I've got to believe you benefitted from a few of these.

<b>Now ask yourself what one or two items above could have really turned around the game. Be honest!</b>

Everyone makes mistakes. The descriptions in this thread bear out that just about everyone made mistakes in judgement - a real team effort. Learn from it, let it go, and move on.

Dittos

Re: Let it go...
 

Well said. It is baffeling that parents/coaches/players would think refs care who wins/loses these games. Heck, I did 2 kiddy ball games today and right now I couldn't tell you who won either.

JRut, if I understood you correctly, you said (paraphrased) that the people working these games are either new or not successful at the higher level. I don't find that to be completely true. Yes, I do work with alot of newer/inexperienced people who sometimes make WhatTheHeckWasThat calls, but that isn't a 100% accurate statement. I see nothing wrong with making an extra hundred bucks on a Saturday afternoon and usually I've been asked to give this newer ref some pointers. Somebody needs to work with these people and help bring them along. Alot of experienced guys like to work some rec games and it's a real bonus when we get partnered up and get to have a cake-walk afternoon. Besides, these are the kind of games that you get the most humorous comments from coaches/fans.

Re: Re: Let it go...
 

I think you need to go back and read my post. I said "I would bet that the officials were inexperienced or not very successful at the higher levels." Or I said something like that. But that does not mean that it applies to every single situation. I am sure there are experienced officials that work many of these types of games, but that would be unusual at least where I live. Of course there are officials that work these games somewhere but mostly in my experience and what many talk about here, it usually are the newer and experienced officials that are not as accomplished. There are always exceptions to any basic rule. I know when I worked a JV game on a Saturday morning. I was at the school where the President of my official's association teaches. He was shocked when I showed up to work this level of game. I know when I work those Saturday morning games I cannot think of one time I worked with a regular varsity officials that has done any playoff experience. Not to say it does not happen ever, but it is rare. I was only speaking of what is typical, not what applies to everyone all the time.

Peace

Re: Re: Let it go...
 

This happens quite a bit in my association. We have a large rec program and there is a small number of varsity officials that don't work rec games. I am a varsity official and I work some of these games -- not nearly as often as I used to. However, I do pick the level of rec games that I will do.

In kids games, I have been know to go the other way just to prove a point to coaches or players. Yesterday I took a kids tournament and a couple of times I had players (5th-6th grade) officiating on the court, indicating which way the ball should go. I know its a small thing, but nip it in the bud. I would make sure I made eye contact with them and go the other way. Then I'd talk to them about playing and not officiating. Also, when I hear travel and such out of coaches, they do get called on their end. My view on these kids tournaments is show up, pat your kids on the back constantly, play hard, and go out for ice cream later. The kids need to be coached, not the officials.

I tend to agree that the odds are good inexperinced officials called the game. The coach should have understood that was what he was going to get. The official should never have approached the coach...both should have let it go. Disappointing on both sides.

However, what I find equally dissappointing are the comments from some that they reward of give calls to well behaved coaches. If you "reward" a coach with a call, you have to be "punishing" someone else. Forget the other coach for a moment...what about the kids on the floor? In my opinion we are there for THEM. We should fairly apply the rules at all times.

IMO, doing anything else is unprofessional.

BTW, I don't think he said the officials cost his team the game. Just that they were bad. We have probably all seen good officials have an off game. When it happens to inexeperienced officials it looks worse. Still doesn't excuse the behavior of the coach.

Instead of turning the officials in...maybe he could find out who they were and help them along. Explain why it is never a good idea to approach a coach after the game, give them some concrete examples of how they could have made things better via game management and point out some things they did well. Conversely, speak with his head coach and explain the best way to deal with officials and how to comment/approach them during a game. Sounds like he is in the middle of a teaching opportunity...if he can pull his emotional attachment out of the situation (good luck with that).

As a coach (4-5 grade girls) who is also an official, I know that my first responsibility as a coach is to teach.

"Getting on the officials" is not even on the list.

I sit on the bench (usually holding my three year old on my lap) and encourage the girls from both teams. When the official makes a call, I tell my player what they did wrong; "don't reach", "move your feet", "go straight up", "no happy feet, start your dribble sooner", etc. Not all of the calls are calls I would make as an official, but they are all learning opportunities.

I have had parents who come in with an attitude of "blaming everyone else" go away thanking me for teaching the girls the proper way to play. The score means nothing if the girls don't learn and play better every game, and good sportsmanship is very high on my list.

There is enough "angst" at the higher level games between coaches and officals. We don't need it 4-5-6 grade level, and as coaches we are the ones who can stop it.

stosh,
That is exactly the kind of attitude we love to see out of lower level coaches. I'm sure everyone that works your games appreciates it. Too often we get (I stole this from another official, but loved the term) Daddy Clipboard coaching. They watch college coaches on tv and expect to act the same way in a kids' game. Not going to happen on my court. Keep up the good work!

I'm in the same boat as stosh, official and coach of 5th grade girls. Although I'm usually standing the whole game, I'm only coaching the girls. I don't enjoy every call. No one does. But let's move on. I've got a team to coach.

Someone who is both an official AND a coach should have an appreciation of what level of officials you may or may not get for elementary school age kids. One day, you may have two top-notch officials who the night before both doing a big varsity games. And the next game, you've got two newbies who are still trying to learn. Or someone who's been around awhile and just wants to do cyo games and does a so-so job.

Coach your team. Help the girls play hard. Deal with things you have control over.