Last second shot - good or not?

[RunninRef]

Just got home from an amature church league game - (as a spectator in disguise)- with an interesting twist on the last 15 seconds of the game.

What's your call in this situation?

15 seconds left in the game. Team A = 41 / Team B = 40. Team A with the ball in forecourt. Both teams have fouls to give. At the 7 second mark Team B's player is called with his 4th foul and storms off the court thinking it's his fifth foul, leaves the court and goes outside in a hallway away from the team and court. Nothing is called on Team B's player other than the foul. No one catches the 4th foul situation - (except me and one other parent from Team A of course, sitting in the stands). I don't say a word. I'm there to watch and observe play. Team B now has only four players on the court. No other subs to come in. Team A puts the ball into play. At the 5 second mark, Team B's 4th player is whistled for his 5th foul and he sits down on the bench. Still no free throws yet for team A. No other subs for team B. Team B down to 3 players on the floor. Team A puts the ball into play - clock goes 4 / 3 / 2 and team A throws the ball out of bounds with 1.7 seconds left on the clock. Team B immediately calls time out to talk thing over. During the timeout, the player from Team B who left the court earlier thinking he had fouled out returns to Team B's bench, un-noticed by everyone but me. Team B prepares to put the ball into play. Team A drops back for defence and guards the remaining 3 players from Team B. At the very second Team B puts the ball into play, the player from Team B who left the floor earlier with the 4th foul, steps onto the floor - (without reporting)- and launches a 70 foot prayer from backcourt. You got it - it went right through the net - swish!!!!!! Time runs out - game over!

The situation happened so fast, the two officials and the scorers table knew something was wrong, but didn't immediately recognise what just happened. Of course team B went crazy with team members and fans on the floor. The two floor officials got together and discuused what just happened - went to the scorers table and discussed with them what just happened and then they spotted me sitting in the stands - minding my own business. They wanted my "official" opinion being the Director of Officials for the league. I want to know what you would have told them - your game replay for the last 15 seconds,and your advise so maybe I can get some sleep tonight! Awaiting your replay!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by RunninRef
Just got home from an amature church league game - (as a spectator in disguise)- with an interesting twist on the last 15 seconds of the game.

What's your call in this situation?

15 seconds left in the game. Team A = 41 / Team B = 40. Team A with the ball in forecourt. Both teams have fouls to give. At the 7 second mark Team B's player is called with his 4th foul and storms off the court thinking it's his fifth foul, leaves the court and goes outside in a hallway away from the team and court. Nothing is called on Team B's player other than the foul. No one catches the 4th foul situation - (except me and one other parent from Team A of course, sitting in the stands). I don't say a word. I'm there to watch and observe play. Team B now has only four players on the court. No other subs to come in. Team A puts the ball into play. At the 5 second mark, Team B's 4th player is whistled for his 5th foul and he sits down on the bench. Still no free throws yet for team A. No other subs for team B. Team B down to 3 players on the floor. Team A puts the ball into play - clock goes 4 / 3 / 2 and team A throws the ball out of bounds with 1.7 seconds left on the clock. Team B immediately calls time out to talk thing over. During the timeout, the player from Team B who left the court earlier thinking he had fouled out returns to Team B's bench, un-noticed by everyone but me. Team B prepares to put the ball into play. Team A drops back for defence and guards the remaining 3 players from Team B. At the very second Team B puts the ball into play, the player from Team B who left the floor earlier with the 4th foul, steps onto the floor - (without reporting)- and launches a 70 foot prayer from backcourt. You got it - it went right through the net - swish!!!!!! Time runs out - game over!

The situation happened so fast, the two officials and the scorers table knew something was wrong, but didn't immediately recognise what just happened. Of course team B went crazy with team members and fans on the floor. The two floor officials got together and discuused what just happened - went to the scorers table and discussed with them what just happened and then they spotted me sitting in the stands - minding my own business. They wanted my "official" opinion being the Director of Officials for the league. I want to know what you would have told them - your game replay for the last 15 seconds,and your advise so maybe I can get some sleep tonight! Awaiting your replay!

By rule the B player should have gotten a T for leaving the floor for unauthorized reasons.

The same player should have received a T for not reporting or being beckoned, unfortunately he becomes a legal player when the ball becomes live, if the officials failed to catch it.

Now the way the play was described it appears that the player was aware that he was entering to fool the opponents, by entering the way he did, so it could fall under an unsporting T.

If it were my decision I'm calling it a forfeit for making a travesty of the game.

[SMEngmann]

I agree with blindzebra, the player who left should've gotten a T for leaving and the way he came back in, he should've gotten a T as well, it seemed deceptive and from the way I read it, he was initially OOB and came onto the court purely to deceive. Or, you could say that it's a throw in violation with 2 offensive players OOB at the same time and award the ball to team B. Either way, a forfeit seems justified here, a travesty was certainly made of the game. I have trouble believing this actually happened and if it did, it's another for the church league annals.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Now the way the play was described it appears that the player was aware that he was entering to fool the opponents, by entering the way he did, so it could fall under an unsporting T.

If it were my decision I'm calling it a forfeit for making a travesty of the game.

My thoughts exactly, BZ.

I'm also wondering if post-er was there because some sort of fol-de-rol like this was expected. If so, refs should have been warned before the game, and been prepared for any possible shenanigans.

[RunninRef]

Trust me - to my amasement this really happened last night! In my 20 years of amature and certified refereeing, I've never seen anything like this happen ever!!!! It's one for the books!!!

Here's the ending to the story......

After the floor officials pulled me out of the stands for my "official opionion" to take them off the hook, I backed off and told them to confir again with each other and the table. (Sooooooooo many mistakes happened in the last 15 seconds that were not called - the player left the bench area - no T. Illegal substitution - no T. Deceptive unsportsman like conduct - no T. Was the 3 point shooter legal or illegal? Did the basket count? Who won the game? I told them to review the last 15 seconds of play and talk about what just happened step by step. What was called / what wasn't called? What can be corrected / what can't be corrected? It's there game / their decision is final / they make the call!! I turned around and walked off the court and sat in my seat. No way was I going to interfere with the game! I was a spectator with no offical court duty. I gave them the tools - now use them!

I don't agree with it, but here's what happened. After about 2-3 minutes - (which seemed like hours), here's what the court officials decided.....

They couldn't correct the call that was missed when the player left the bench and court area - (no T was given).

They missed the player returning to the court on the inbounds play that shot the ball - illegal substitution /deceptive play or not - (no T was given).

They did decide that the player failed to report, entered the game illegally - thus the 3 point shot didn't count.

Time ran off the clock - game over!!! Team A wins 41-40.

What a night!!! Like I said , it's one for the books.

Here's my questions.... Should I have interfered and given my opinion to help the officials make their call?

Would you have allowed the shot to count?

Would you have assesed a T on the player who entered the game without reporting?

Would you have restored time back to the point of the three point shot?

Help me out here boy's!! It will be a long weekend!!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by RunninRef
Just got home from an amature church league game - (as a spectator in disguise)- with an interesting twist on the last 15 seconds of the game.

What's your call in this situation?

15 seconds left in the game. Team A = 41 / Team B = 40. Team A with the ball in forecourt. Both teams have fouls to give. At the 7 second mark Team B's player is called with his 4th foul and storms off the court thinking it's his fifth foul, leaves the court and goes outside in a hallway away from the team and court. Nothing is called on Team B's player other than the foul. No one catches the 4th foul situation - (except me and one other parent from Team A of course, sitting in the stands). I don't say a word. I'm there to watch and observe play. Team B now has only four players on the court. No other subs to come in. Team A puts the ball into play. At the 5 second mark, Team B's 4th player is whistled for his 5th foul and he sits down on the bench. Still no free throws yet for team A. No other subs for team B. Team B down to 3 players on the floor. Team A puts the ball into play - clock goes 4 / 3 / 2 and team A throws the ball out of bounds with 1.7 seconds left on the clock. Team B immediately calls time out to talk thing over. During the timeout, the player from Team B who left the court earlier thinking he had fouled out returns to Team B's bench, un-noticed by everyone but me. Team B prepares to put the ball into play. Team A drops back for defence and guards the remaining 3 players from Team B. At the very second Team B puts the ball into play, the player from Team B who left the floor earlier with the 4th foul, steps onto the floor - (without reporting)- and launches a 70 foot prayer from backcourt. You got it - it went right through the net - swish!!!!!! Time runs out - game over!

The situation happened so fast, the two officials and the scorers table knew something was wrong, but didn't immediately recognise what just happened. Of course team B went crazy with team members and fans on the floor. The two floor officials got together and discuused what just happened - went to the scorers table and discussed with them what just happened and then they spotted me sitting in the stands - minding my own business. They wanted my "official" opinion being the Director of Officials for the league. I want to know what you would have told them - your game replay for the last 15 seconds,and your advise so maybe I can get some sleep tonight! Awaiting your replay!

1) Since B1 really thought that he had fouled out, and then he discovered that he had not fouled out, and this is a church youth league with parent volunteer coaches, I would tend to believe that Coach B did not think that B1 had to report into the game, but rather just enter the court with the rest of the team after the timeout was over.

2) Therfore, I ask this question: When does an illegal substitute become a legal player on the court? When a dead ball becomes live. When the game official placed the ball at the disposal of Team B for its throw-in, B1 became a legal player. B1's field goal attempt counts and the game is over.

MTD, Sr.

[tjones1]

Sounds like the officials obviously didn't count players before making the ball live again. Could of been prevented, yet I know we all make mistakes!

[bob jenkins]

My take:

Everything that happened up until the last shot counts.

If B1 was off the court, then stepped on at the last minute to catch the pass, that's the time to issue the T for "leaving the court for an unauthorized reason." Wave off the shot, put 1.7 seconds back on the clock, give A two shots and the ball. OH -- and since that would be B1's fifth foul, he can leave the court now.

IF B1 was on the court during the whole throw-in process (there wasn't any attempt to decieve), then count the bucket.

[chrs_schuster]

Thats really an outstanding situation! I agree with most of the comments so far. Only question I have is where do you get your Refs? I've had bad games before but NEVER that bad. In that close of a game how can they not take there time and make sure the most crucial time of the game "last minute" is done right. As for your situation, I think you could have given your opinion just because they asked for it. Sounds like neither ref was a strong ref and needed some advice to get the game right. It is a church league so I think it would've been ok for you to step in after they asked.

[BamaRef]

Church ball, it doesn't get any better.

I think the officials wanted to get it correct. Therefore, they asked you for you help. I think you wanted to do right by letting them make the call. IMO great decision.

As I read your situation, the player who shot the ball stepped onto the court after the ball became live. Therefore, a T should have been called with play resuming as specified by rule. Most likely, the game would have ended with team A winning. The officials decision was probably correct based upon the information and background they had. Most of these types of officials are not aspiring to the levels we aspire to. I think they look at it as doing a good deed, an act of service. If that is the case, I certainly will cut them the slack they deserve.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) Since B1 really thought that he had fouled out, and then he discovered that he had not fouled out, and this is a church youth league with parent volunteer coaches, I would tend to believe that Coach B did not think that B1 had to report into the game, but rather just enter the court with the rest of the team after the timeout was over.

2) Therfore, I ask this question: When does an illegal substitute become a legal player on the court? When a dead ball becomes live. When the game official placed the ball at the disposal of Team B for its throw-in, B1 became a legal player. B1's field goal attempt counts and the game is over.

MTD, Sr.

So in #1 ignorance of the rules by the coach is an excuse?

If it is, than we could NEVER call anything.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BamaRef
I think the officials wanted to get it correct. Therefore, they asked you for you help. I think you wanted to do right by letting them make the call. IMO great decision.

I agree. I've been the ref that made the mistakes too often, and I'd have loved to have someone there to empower me to do the right thing. Sounds great.

[RunninRef]

Thanks for your interpretations of this crazy ending to a "church ball" game. My refs did what they thought was correct. Neither with a lot of experience and I didn't want them to be sooooo dependant on me that they will be looking over their shoulder each time they make a call to see "if" I approve or reject.

I'm right with most of you of how the game could have been improved the in the last 1.7 seconds. I would have Dis-allowrd the three point shot / take the clock back to the 1.7 second mark / assess the T to the player who left and entered the court without permission / his 5th foul - have him "officially" sit down on the bench / let team A shoot the T shots / and input the ball into play.

Hey, who knows.... team A could have hit the 2 T shots, inbounded the ball and team B steals the ball and shoots another 70 foot 3 point shot to tie the game 43-43!!! OVERTIME!!! You gotta love the game!!!

The game turned out OK - even without everything being perfect! I felt bad for the kid that made the 3 point 70' prayer. His coach should of had his arm around his shoulder telling him what a great kid he is and letting him know a little about sportsmanship - and maybe about the rule of leaving the court. Instead the coach was screaming to count the 3 point bucket of course.

One of my Association partners turned me on to the site. Where have I been all these years???? Great forum to vent and gain some more insight from all over the country.

Again, thanks for your input. I'm hooked!!!!!!

[johnnyrao]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) Since B1 really thought that he had fouled out, and then he discovered that he had not fouled out, and this is a church youth league with parent volunteer coaches, I would tend to believe that Coach B did not think that B1 had to report into the game, but rather just enter the court with the rest of the team after the timeout was over.

2) Therfore, I ask this question: When does an illegal substitute become a legal player on the court? When a dead ball becomes live. When the game official placed the ball at the disposal of Team B for its throw-in, B1 became a legal player. B1's field goal attempt counts and the game is over.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

Does it matter if B1 comes on the court AFTER it is live? I know that an illegal substitute becomes legal when the ball is live, but in this case the substitute did not come on illegally until after the ball was already live. If this is true than what prevents "changes on the fly"? It seems to me that this would be an illegal substitute violation because the ball was already live.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by johnnyrao

Mark,

Does it matter if B1 comes on the court AFTER it is live? I know that an illegal substitute becomes legal when the ball is live, but in this case the substitute did not come on illegally until after the ball was already live. If this is true than what prevents "changes on the fly"? It seems to me that this would be an illegal substitute violation because the ball was already live.

Actually it falls under leaving the court and returning or just a plain old unsporting T, but under no circumstances was it legal.