No count from Hightower

[TriggerMN]

Michigan State leads Michigan by about 11 with 2:13 to go in the 2nd half. After a made free throw by Michigan, MSU inbounds, with Ed Hightower as the trail. Before the ball gains frontcourt status, MSU calls a time-out with 2:02 remaining.

Before I go on, I understand that the official's count is how the 10-second violation is determined, and not by the game clock. I'm fine with no violation here.

However, Hightower NEVER had a visual count for the entire time the ball was in the backcourt. I don't mean to pick on Hightower, as many officials at the D-1 level don't seem to use a visual count--he just happened to be the official in this instance.

I guess the visual count is one of those "small things" that are irrelevant in a D-1 game?

I'm curious as to what others think about this. Anyone think there should always be the visual count? Anyone feel that there are more important things to worry about?

[JRutledge]

I always give a count. But I do not blame Hightower or any D1 official for not giving one. No one makes them do it. I know many officials that like to use the shot clock as a determining factor for 10 second counts. Unless someone takes away games I do not see how this is going to change.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Michigan State leads Michigan by about 11 with 2:13 to go in the 2nd half. After a made free throw by Michigan, MSU inbounds, with Ed Hightower as the trail. Before the ball gains frontcourt status, MSU calls a time-out with 2:02 remaining.

Before I go on, I understand that the official's count is how the 10-second violation is determined, and not by the game clock. I'm fine with no violation here.

However, Hightower NEVER had a visual count for the entire time the ball was in the backcourt. I don't mean to pick on Hightower, as many officials at the D-1 level don't seem to use a visual count--he just happened to be the official in this instance.

I guess the visual count is one of those "small things" that are irrelevant in a D-1 game?

I'm curious as to what others think about this. Anyone think there should always be the visual count? Anyone feel that there are more important things to worry about?

I don't think it's as important for the backcourt, if you trust the officials to be counting. For the 5 second count it's more important, because the players need to know whether or not they're in the closely guarded situation. With the backcourt count, everyone knows it's there. Also, I'm guessing in the situation you cite that he saw the TO coming and gave it to them. The whistle and clock stop may have added the extra second.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I don't think it's as important for the backcourt, if you trust the officials to be counting. For the 5 second count it's more important, because the players need to know whether or not they're in the closely guarded situation. With the backcourt count, everyone knows it's there. Also, I'm guessing in the situation you cite that he saw the TO coming and gave it to them. The whistle and clock stop may have added the extra second.

Curious: what is the NCAA-M mechanic for a BC count? If there is supposed to be one, then EH was wrong. If it is optional, then I think the mechanics are lacking.

I appreciate the fact that the TO was granted.

When I was coaching the first year Fed rules allowed coaches to call a timeout, I had the 7th ranked team in the province. I was playing the 4th ranked team and we were neck and neck in the last 2 minutes of the game. On this one possession, my girls were having trouble getting across half-court. Because I have the officiating background, I was looking to count the number of arm swipes to know if I wanted to use a timeout. He never had one. When I requested a timeout, he called 10 seconds instead. There was less than 10 seconds that came off the clock between when the count should have started and the whistle. If you're of the mind that this doesn't have an impact, then you're flat out wrong.

An official's mistake should never cause a turnover. It should also never cause the inability to make a coaching decision.

If EH missed the visible count, he was in error. (No big deal there, a perfect game is near impossible.) But like I said, I appreciate the timeout being granted.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Michigan State leads Michigan by about 11 with 2:13 to go in the 2nd half. After a made free throw by Michigan, MSU inbounds, with Ed Hightower as the trail. Before the ball gains frontcourt status, MSU calls a time-out with 2:02 remaining.

Before I go on, I understand that the official's count is how the 10-second violation is determined, and not by the game clock. I'm fine with no violation here.

However, Hightower NEVER had a visual count for the entire time the ball was in the backcourt. I don't mean to pick on Hightower, as many officials at the D-1 level don't seem to use a visual count--he just happened to be the official in this instance.

I guess the visual count is one of those "small things" that are irrelevant in a D-1 game?

I'm curious as to what others think about this. Anyone think there should always be the visual count? Anyone feel that there are more important things to worry about?

I wonder what the shot clock said? If there was a tip on the throw in the game clock could have started before the shot clock and the 10 second count. I suspect if the shot clock said 24 then someone would should have said something.

Anyway, interesting post.

[eventnyc]

Originally posted by TriggerMN

Before I go on, I understand that the official's count is how the 10-second violation is determined, and not by the game clock. I'm fine with no violation here.

However, Hightower NEVER had a visual count for the entire time the ball was in the backcourt. I don't mean to pick on Hightower, as many officials at the D-1 level don't seem to use a visual count--he just happened to be the official in this instance.

I guess the visual count is one of those "small things" that are irrelevant in a D-1 game?
[/B]

Your quote brought a smile to my face. I attended an IAABO Camp this past summer. The instructors were discussing mechanics and made it a point to tell us not to watch a D1 official's mechanics. They stated that their mechanics, on the way up, were very sharp. When they reach the top, some of them slack off. The comment was not meant as overly critical, just factual.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I wonder what the shot clock said? If there was a tip on the throw in the game clock could have started before the shot clock and the 10 second count. I suspect if the shot clock said 24 then someone would should have said something.

Shot clock AND game clock start on any touch/tip on a throw-in! So, the shot clock could say 24 and EH could still be right!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by eventnyc


Your quote brought a smile to my face. I attended an IAABO Camp this past summer. The instructors were discussing mechanics and made it a point to tell us not to watch a D1 official's mechanics. They stated that their mechanics, on the way up, were very sharp. When they reach the top, some of them slack off. The comment was not meant as overly critical, just factual.

I was told the very same thing the last two summers at a camp run by a D1 official. I was even told to stop doing a mechanic that another famous D1 official does on a regular basis. I was getting ahead of the dribbler in the backcourt and I was told not to do what this official does on a regular basis when you see him on TV.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref

Shot clock AND game clock start on any touch/tip on a throw-in! So, the shot clock could say 24 and EH could still be right!

Yeah, you're right. I didn't word that too well (too busy being clever with the strikethrough tag. )

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I was told the very same thing the last two summers at a camp run by a D1 official. I was even told to stop doing a mechanic that another famous D1 official does on a regular basis. I was getting ahead of the dribbler in the backcourt and I was told not to do what this official does on a regular basis when you see him on TV.

Peace

I can imagine who this is. The one I always see WAY ahead of the dribbler is Higgins.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I can imagine who this is. The one I always see WAY ahead of the dribbler is Higgins.

I plead the 5th.

Peace

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I wonder what the shot clock said? If there was a tip on the throw in the game clock could have started before the shot clock and the 10 second count. I suspect if the shot clock said 24 then someone would should have said something.

Anyway, interesting post.

Nope - shot clock starts running when the game clock starts on an inbounds play under NCAA rules (team control begins when the player has the ball for the throw-in).

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Michigan State leads Michigan by about 11 with 2:13 to go in the 2nd half. After a made free throw by Michigan, MSU inbounds, with Ed Hightower as the trail. Before the ball gains frontcourt status, MSU calls a time-out with 2:02 remaining.

Before I go on, I understand that the official's count is how the 10-second violation is determined, and not by the game clock. I'm fine with no violation here.

However, Hightower NEVER had a visual count for the entire time the ball was in the backcourt. I don't mean to pick on Hightower, as many officials at the D-1 level don't seem to use a visual count--he just happened to be the official in this instance.

I guess the visual count is one of those "small things" that are irrelevant in a D-1 game?

I'm curious as to what others think about this. Anyone think there should always be the visual count? Anyone feel that there are more important things to worry about?

Well if you are asking for MS, JV, and Var level ball then I say YES! Visible counts should be occurring in ALL applicable situations: inbounds, backcourt, closely guarded, and 3-seconds. Coach already gave a great example, too. It helps your partners out as well IMO. Especially in a very loud gym.

[eventnyc]

Well if you are asking for MS, JV, and Var level ball then I say YES! Visible counts should be occurring in ALL applicable situations: inbounds, backcourt, closely guarded, and 3-seconds. Coach already gave a great example, too. It helps your partners out as well IMO. Especially in a very loud gym.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Visible...............3 seconds?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Robmoz

Well if you are asking for MS, JV, and Var level ball then I say YES! Visible counts should be occurring in ALL applicable situations: inbounds, backcourt, closely guarded, and 3-seconds. Coach already gave a great example, too. It helps your partners out as well IMO. Especially in a very loud gym.

A 3-second count is NEVER visible at ANY level.