first the question...3 person, who has the shot at the end of a quarter???

now for the coach...tonite 8th grade boys a and b games. B game is ugly basketball but competitive game. The A game is going along not as competitive but a little better basketball...before the game the home coach mentions that this game should be fairly comptetitive, but that the fans get a little too involved, and to just be aware. No real problems and the game goes along. With 31 seconds left in the game, a 12 pt game in favor of the visitors, the timer doesn't start the clock. The timers and bookkeeper are volunteer 8th grade girls...well anyway, I see the clock isn't started, and I hear a fan yelling about it...we soon have a foul called, and the fan continues to point out that the clock didn't start. During a couple dead balls the home coach had reminded my partners that the crowd could be beligerent and not to listen to them, and have them removed if they got that far. During the dead ball this idiot continues to yell that the clock didn't start....he is a visiting fan who's team is winning by 12, and he is berating the clock crew...during the dead ball I tell him "hey, leave them alone, they are volunteers. " to which i receive "tell them to start the god**mn clock"...I say ok that is enough, tell him you need to leave then ask game management to remove the gentleman. In the interem, he incites the crowd about his ejection...while we are at the table talking about how much time to take off, the home coach says, just call it, that fan's behavior is unacceptable (a visitors fan), we aren't going to play and justify this type of behavior.....I thought that it deserved a kudos....and granted I could have just let the guy stay, but an adult berating jur high girls volunteering time to run the clock and the book, well he just needs to leave the game and hopefully never return.....sorry for the long post....just wanted to say that our coaching brehteren, deserves a good word too.....

Trail has the clock, but of course the C could also have it. Pregame would be the place to decide in which situation that the C might have the clock.

thanks IREF
 

The problem was, we just had a guy join us after his game, in a different gym in the same school, just to work on some mechanics LOL

The Center or the Trail Official whoever is opposite the table at the time.

Peace

JRUT,
that is what I thought, but I wasn't sure...

Here's my question

If the clock did not start and you saw it, why not correct it there. Once you have a foul It may be too late.

Granted the guy was an idiot but if the clock had been corrected quickly, maybe he would not have been out of control..

Kelvin the point of it was, his team is up by 12 and he is berating jr high girls running a clock, he is a dic**ead....
and the coach, said call it, that sort of behavior is unacceptable...

Exactly, unless you've pregamed otherwise, for some reason.

I'm with Kelvin on this one.
How soon after you knew the clock was not running did you have a foul?
Was it immediately?
If not, you should have blown your whistle and got the clock situation fixed...maybe, that's what you did?
BTW, good job having the jerk fan removed.

...and that "reason" may be because the L on a transition has the lay-up at the buzzer while the opposite table official is still in back court...agree Tony?

I never have seen a point to make the lead the person that has the last second shot. Having the last second shot does not mean you will know for sure what happens. It means you are the person that makes the signal. If you are in transition and the Lead has the best look, the Center or Trail should go to the Lead for help. But I cannot ever advocate the Lead signaling one way or another on whether a shot is good or not. I see too many things that can go wrong if you use that variable.

Peace

Actually had this happen a few years ago...when we were doing 2-whistle.
Unfortunatley, we did not pre-game this...we always had T take the last second shot.
Well, this night we had a quick steal and a fast break going the other way. I was new L and running right with the play. I was right on top of it when the player took the last second shot...my partner was well behind the division line and had to guess. (His best guess he said)
You guessed it...he called it different than I called it.
It looked bad...and we heard about it from the crowd.
We got together and with my information had him "change" his call...he reported it and we went to half-time.
I struggled with weather or not I should have even signalled...it was instinct, since it was very, very close. In retrospect, I probably should have held and went to T with information...since we had not pre-gamed this.
After this incident...we pre-game that T in 2-whistle will have last second shot...or opposite table in 3-whistle...
unless, in transition the L has it if the other official is behind the division line.

The NFHS book gives it to the official opposite the table. However, check with your local association as to what you do in your area. In PA, we changed it to the C always having last shot--regardless of his position. I think it makes more sense as you'll avoid the problems mentioned above of having the T too deep on a press to get a good look.

Ball on end line going the other way with 1 second left, trail is opposite the table. Screening action on center's side of the court in the backcourt.

Long pass to the 3 point line in the frontcourt, how is the trail or center going to get a look at that shot?;)

I agree with everyone that the mechanic on a last second shot in 3 person is give it to "opposite". What I don't understand is why every shot clock situation the mechanic is "primary"? I don't see what the difference is, in both cases you are judging if the shot was out of the shooters hand before the horn. If primary is good enough for 39.59.9 minutes why change the mechanic on end of a period/half or game? Just seems funny and strange to me.

What makes you think that trail or the center official cannot ever see that type of play? But if they cannot see the play, the lead should not be signaling anything. If the Trial or Center does not see the play, then the Lead can help but not signal anything. It is there call unless they decide to give up that responsibility. I still feel that the calling person (to the table) should be the opposite official that makes the call. Even if it is a couple seconds after the horn the officials can come together and help each other on this call. It looks a lot worse if the lead assumes that the Center or Trail does not have a look at the play and signals one thing and the calling official signals something else. I do not know about you but I can run and hustle. It is not out of the question that I can see the shot from those positions.

Peace

Another variable is if the gym only has one clock, mounted on a wall behind the basket. In some cases the lead may be the only one with a clear view of the clock, if the play is going away from that wall.

That is the accepted mechanic in two-person, and I think it carries well to three-person.

It's also why NCAAW make the C responsible -- the C will never be "too far" from the play (in theory), and the C will remain responsible if theres a turnover (instead of the T and L taking turns being responsible -- if the y are opposite the table).

I seem to recall reading that it's also the NBA mechanic? Pre-defined that it goes to L on a throw with less than 3-seconds left (or something like that).

And, I agree with whoever said that the "best" mechanic (imho) is to give it to primary.

Around here, we have T or C (whoever is opposite of table) take both the shot clock and last second game clock. Easy to remember, plus you don't have to worry about lockdown since a rotation doesn't change the person who has clock responsibility.

Z

I guess my question would be acceptable to whom? I hear a lot of people talk about different things as to who has the last second shot and I do not hear many people that I respect advocating having the lead making this call on their own.

The last second shot is everyone's responsibility first of all. What I am saying is that only one person should be signaling is the Trail or the Center. Signaling and seeing are two different things. I think there is too much risk in saying, "In transition we will do this." Well every time there is a transition does not make the Center or Trail official totally screened or in a bad position to see the call. The Center or Trail might be in a better position than the Lead to see the entire play. I think you should let the calling official make the final decision and have the other officials help in that decision.

Peace

The vast majority of officials don't have a monitor to go to, the official with the best look and KNOWS, it is an attempt or late, SHOULD be signaling IMMEDIATELY.

Nothing looks worse than a huddle in this situation.

I am not talking about having a huddle. You can confer with your partner without a huddle. But you will have to huddle if one official says it counts and another official says it is no good. Not sure that that looks very good either. And if you tell me that "in transition we are going to do this," what happens if the Trail or Center sees the play clearly and the Lead assumes they did not. You tell me.

Peace

I already gave you a play where only lead could have a good look at the attempt.

Remove the C and make it two whistle and it is even more LIKELY that only lead can see that play.

With all due respect I really am not talking about 2 person. I hardly work 2 person games. Even in 2 person I have not come in contact with a situation that I could not see the shot. Usually if there are only seconds, it is not like the shooter is all the way on the other end of the court and right in front of the Lead. Usually the shooter is more at half court and both officials can see the shot.

Peace

I'll repeat the play I posted before.

Trail is opposite the table.

1 second left.

Throw in from the endline in the back court.

Screening action infront of C also in the back court.

Long pass to inside the 3 pt line in the front court opposite the table.

Catch and shot.

Let's break this down.

By the manual this try is trail's call, trail who is 65 feet away with no angle to see hands and ball.

Center is pinned at the division line, so they are 30 feet or so away with a slightly better angle.

Lead is right on top of it, stationary, with the play coming at him, and with an unobstructed view of the hands and ball.

This is obvious in 3 whistle and a no-brainer in 2.:D

What makes you think the Trail cannot see that? Because it is on the other end of the court, he cannot see the shot? What if the Lead sees one thing and the Trail with another angle sees something else? Now what? At the very least the officials better make some kind of eye contact before there is a signal. All I am saying that there better be a pause before a final decision is made. You do not have to agree, but I think it is better to do that than have any confusion as to who has the call. I have yet to see this perfect pass that goes the length of the court and there is a shot. Sorry if I am skeptical with your point of view on this.

Peace

It is OBVIOUS which official in a situation like that will have the best look and get the call correct, and it is NOT the one 65 feet away that cannot see the hands and ball.

I guess you missed one of the best NCAA games ever, but I'll bet EVERY Kentucky fan will disagree about never seeing a perfect full court pass for a last second shot.:D

Well actually, if I recall there was a camera angle that was from the baseline. It was clear as day from the baseline that the whether he got the shot off in time. If anything the Lead official in this case had several players around the basket. The only two players in the back court were Grant Hill and player near half court from what I remember. I saw the game live when it happen, I have seen the replay hundreds of times by now. I saw nothing that suggested that the Trail or Center could not see the shot. If anyone had more of an obstructed view, it was the Lead Official. Actually that very example is the reason I hold the philosophy that I do. No one has to be standing right in front of a play to see the play. ;)

Peace

Where did I say that the Duke/Kentucky play was the same?

I put out a specific situation where lead would ABSOLUTELY have the best look, and you came back with, " I've NEVER seen a perfect long pass play."

You have yet to address the fact that there will be situations where lead WILL have the best look, and your overstatement about full court pass plays completey blew up in your face.;)

You are right. You did not talk specifically about the Duke/Kentucky game.

But the "never" I am referring to is in games I have worked in. The other situations that I have seen on TV, it still is not a common occurrence. I do not officiate for the unusual or once in a career type plays. The reason Christian Lathaner (sp?) play is so amazing is because you do not see that every day. You do not see it every few seasons. I have seen many buzzer beaters and there they are a result of a dribble and shoot.

I am not going to admit that the Lead has the best look, because I do not agree with that point of view. I can only speak for me. I hustle and run. I rarely just stand in one place, especially in a situation when I expect a quick drive or run from one end of the court.

If you feel that is the best way to handle the situation, do so. I do not have to work with you. I do not have to convince you one way or the other during a pregame what we are going to do. I have heard people change the responsibility based on who can see the clock. Just because it works for one person does not mean it works for everyone else. I would rather let the Center or Trail (again I rarely work 2 man games, sorry) make the decision. If they do not have the angle, they can ask for help. There is nothing wrong with getting help. I just do not want there to be two separate officials signaling and seeing two different things. Then having to communicate and decide which is right and which was wrong. I will get over how it looks if they confer with each other to get that play right.

Peace