This didn't happen to me but to one of the guys I assigned to a MS game. The coach is a real pain but can coach when he so chooses. In the pregame meeting, the officials ask the coaches the basic questions: Is your team properly equipped? Will they remain properly equipped throughout the entire game? Will they show good sportsmanship throughout the entire game? Both coaches answer yes to these questions.

When the official asks "Will you display good sportsmanship throughout the entire game?", the coach replys "It depends on how you do tonight." When the question is repeated, he replies, "It matters what calls you make." It is only after the question is repeated a third time that he finally answers yes.

How should an official handle this situation? I appreciate all replies and help.

Why do you ask all those questions? I think that is the problem, not necessarily the way the coach responded. All I think you need to ask is, "Are your player's properly equip?" Then I would just say, "It is all about sportsmanship tonight any questions?" I would not ask them how they are going to be all night. That sounds like it opens you up for a response like that.

Peace

Teach the officials the art of understanding a wry wit.
mick

We're required to ask those questions.

If you're required to ask those questions, then in my opinion:

(a) Have you had problems with this coach before?
(b) Is it known that this coach is a hooligan?

If (a) or (b) is "Yes," then I'd WHACK him right at the beginning.

If they're both "No" then maybe he's trying (albeit very poorly) to be funny. Afterwards, I'd write a report to your officiating executive or the commission responsible for this game.

Treating officials like this, ie. playing silly games, does nothing to keep officials interested in officiating, or wanting to do middle school games.

Are you required to use that format? We just ask ttwo questions Are your players legally equipped for the whole game? and Are you teaching them good sportsmanship? I do it in a very cut-and-dried tone of voice, but make sure they answer appropriately. If a coach made any kind of answer other then yes, I may or may not T, but he'd have a very short leash for the whole game.

Who is requiring you to ask those silly questions at a middle school game?

Peace

Many state associations have specific requirements with regard to pregame conferences.

But then, you should already know that.

Tony,

My state requires a sportsmanship statement (they do not require specific words) but that is for high school games, not middle school games. Now the IESA might require some procedures, but that is not a statewide organization (does not apply to all middle schools). This is why I asked the question. Who makes the officials ask such silly questions? Our state has us ask a question about players being equip and make a sportsmanship statement. But they do not ask us to have a coach confirm if the players or teams are going to stay that way during the entire game. That question to me just brings that kind of comment.

Peace

Jeff -- The kind of person who would respond belligerently to these questions in an ms game shouldn't even be coaching. Period. That's why the ritual is in place to get those guys outta there. At least, that's my read.

Juulie,

I am not saying the coach was justified with his actions. But the nature of the questions in my opinion opens up this type of confrontation. Especially at the JH or middle school levels. It is not like you get the most mature coaches at that level.

Peace

Exactly. The questions weed them out.

Why do you need to weed out a coach? Of course he was a total jerk and I have no sympathy for this coach and what he got. I just think it is a bit much to ask those kinds of questions. Our job should be to try to squelch conflict, not exacerbate it.

Peace

I don't want guys like that working with kids this age. If they have a coach with a healthier attitude, they'll be more likely to learn healthy attitudes themselves. A coach who is this confrontational before the game even starts, and this anxious to blame the refs for whatever might go wrong should be working in a middle school.

Juulie,

I do not disagree with your attitude about a coach like this at all. My job as an official is not to decide who can coach and who cannot coach. My job is to call the game to the best of my judgment. My job is not to ask questions to make sure someone is competent to coach a bunch of kids. That is the job of the administration. These questions do not determine if a coach is competent to handle kids anyway. I just do not see the point. Maybe I am just flat out wrong, but this is the way I feel. I just do not see the point of asking questions that just seem more confrontational than helping us officiate a game.

Peace

I wonder how we would feel if the coach were to ask us a question of a similar nature, eg. "will you make good calls throughout the game?" In a way, I think the coaches defensive response in this case was justified. The question is provocative.

The question "will you display good sportsmanship" seems to imply that we come from a position of mistrust. Should we not always assume the coach is good until he breaks that trust?

I know it's only MS, but I can see lots of coaches raising an eyebrow at the question - and in a way, I don't blame them.

Just my $0.02

You may be right for Illinois. You are flat out wrong for ReadyToRef's state. His state set a procedure, ReadyToRef has no choice but to follow that procedure, and the coach that's wise-a$$ing him should know the procedure as well by this point of the season.

In this sitch, there's absolutely no need for a coach to have a chip on his shoulder before the game even starts.

JR

The procedure goes against every camp/evaluator/assignor/mentor advice I've ever received, which have all said keep the coaches meeting short, bland, and non-specific. I'm sorry, but these questions, as harmless as they seem to us, invite trouble, IMO.

That may be completely true, but it still doesn't apply to or help ReadyToRef. He may not agree with with what his state or association is requiring him to do either, but he still has to follow the procedure given to him. Personally, I don't think that there's any need in the world for any pissant middle school coach to come out before the game has even started with such a crappy attitude like that. If he wants to inform me that he's gonna be on my a$$ the first time that he <b>thinks</b> that I screwed up, then I'm gonna inform him to get ready--because he certainly ain't gonna like my next call. Just my grumpy opinion.

Aaaaaarrrrgh!
 

I agree, Rut and canckrefguy. Those questions are condescending, patronizing, and demeaning.

I agree JR. There is no reason. Thus, he had to be making an attempt at humor.

ReadytoRef, with the state requirement of the questions, what is the penalty for an incorrect answer. Or is there none?
<HR>
If by some unimagined chance the coach actually answered the questions seriously, why then would we punish him for his truth? Why would there be *more* punishment for that coach than for the coach that answered in the positive and lied when asked?

The states do officials a disservice requiring such questions. At most we should make a statement and not open up the subject of sportsmanship to discussion.

mick

[Edited by mick on Jan 26th, 2005 at 05:42 AM]

If by some unimagined chance the coach actually answered the questions seriously, why then would we punish him for his truth?
[/B][/QUOTE]Probably for the same reason that I'd punish him for <b>his</b> "truth" if he swore at me, Mick. To me, this coach is trying to either work, belittle or intimidate the officials before they've been given a chance to show how competent(or incompetent) they really are. He's making a mockery of the whole sportsmanship idea of this procedure. I'd ask him if he was serious- so that he couldn't use the excuse later that he was kidding. If he said "yes", whack.

Note that I didn't say whether I agreed with this procedure or not. To me, that isn't relevant at all. ReadyToRef has no choice but to ask these questions- that's mandated to him, and the coach has probably already been informed from his league/state office exactly why these questions are being asked. Just because the questions are mandatory doesn't provide the coach with a forum to expound on all of his perceived grievances with previous officials.

Again, just my own 4-hour-later but still grumpy opinion.

Since it is a requirement maybe the best way to handle it is to ask the questions, receive the answers, walk away and tell you assigner of any responses like this. I don't think I would T a coach.....well I just thought about it. In a MS game I probably would T a coach up at this point. These questions put the official in a bad situation and I would ask the same person(s) that requires the questions what to do when given answers like this.

"I appreciate the humor, coach, and I understand your feelings about the question, but as you know the (insert organization) requires me to ask the question and get an affirmative answer from the head coach before we can start the game".

Then, after the meeting, find a time to meet with the coach, "Sorry about that coach. I think some of the procedures are a bit of an overkill." The coach will likely then apologize to the official.

I ask 2 questions of every coach when I'm the referee. Matter of fact, this is my entire meeting:
---------------------
Hi (Coach's first name), Rich Fronheiser.

(1) Are your players legally attired?
(2) Do you promise to promote and exhibit good sportsmanship?

Good luck to you tonight.
----------------------

I've never had a smart-aleck response to those questions, but 99.99% of my high school games are at the varsity level and those coaches know how to talk to officials before the game starts. I'm sure there are exceptions.

While I'm the short-and-sweet kinda guy, good sportsmanship has been an emphasis for quite a while and I don't mind mentioning it during the captain's meeting and at our 1:30 meeting with each head coach.

--Rich

Well coac h
 

Coach trying to be cute, but all I would have said was,

"well coach how you act might just determine whether you get to stay around and see my calls or not"

And then of course, he would be on a short leash the rest of the night. In the box the entire contest etc.,

thanks
David

I absolutely disagree.

Asking the coach "Will you practice good sportsmanship throughout the game?" is not the same as "will you make good calls throughout the game?" The coach wasn't asked, "Will you call good plays, make good adjustments on defense, and make good substitutions throughout the game?"

If he wants to ask the official, "Will you promte good sportsmanship throughout the game?" that's fine. But he shouldn't become offended by such a question.

Many state associations have specific requirements with regard to pregame conferences.

But then, you should already know that.

I would never apologize for what I was required to do. That's a mistake. Don't condone his actions by telling him you don't like the procedure either.

I do not think you have been reading my posts. This is not about whose state is right or not. I wanted to know who is making them ask those questions. Part of the reason I am asking is because where I live there is not governing body that decides procedures for all levels. I wanted to know if the official's association was requiring that, or some middle school governing body was requiring those questions. Either way I would make some effort to change that procedure and this situation illustrates the possible problem. Whether it was required or not, I am not sure I would ask those questions that way. And I wanted to know if those questions were what are required word for word, or do they require just some type of statement. I think what I am asking is very legitimate. If he is asking how to handle a situation like this, my answer is to complain the body about the nature of those questions. I can see how a coach would answer the way this coach did. Actually I am surprised some kind of similar comment does not happen more often.

Peace

I agree.

If I detected humor in the coach's answer I would play along "Hey coach, I might get 1 or 2 right today, who knows? But you still need to show good sportsmanship. We agree, right?".

If I thought he was being even the slightest bit confrontational then he would get a quick and certain training session on the nature of our relationship.

And if the question and a yes answer is required then the coaches should all expect it. So no, it's not confrontational.

Those questions surely back the coach into a corner - THERE IS ONLY ONE ALLOWABLE ANSWER.

So, there is no reason to ask the question UNLESS you are planning to hold him to his answer. "Coach you said you would display good sportsmanship."

But don't we already hold the coach accountable for good sportsmanship? It is obvious that we expect good sportsmanship from the coach and players. We penalize for bad sportsmanship independent of the questions and independent of the answer. The questions are meaningless and hence the answers are meaninless too.

So, the requirement to ask the questions is really kind of stupid too. I'm sorry, meaningless, not stupid. But in light of that, the coach's answers should be taken for what they probably were... humor. I don't think any official should be prying the approved answer out of a coach by asking the same question three times. That is definitely demeaning, belittling, and confrontational. It is demanding the coach to be subservient. That is wrong.

"And here are our usual, required questions...1, 2, 3. Okay let's have a great game. Good Luck to you both." If I was required to ask such questions I would not even wait for the answers - just move on.

$0.25
:)

This is exactly the point. To hold him accountable later, if necessary.

Tony, if the state *requires* a yes answer to these questions before the game is started (which serve as a reminder, at least) then why is restating the question in search of the *required* answer belittling? How much more belittling would it have been if the referee simply said "Fine. Game over, final score 2-0 by forfeit."???

And it is belittling, IMO, for the coach to use this *required* procedure as a means to take a shot at the referee.

Thank you for all of your comments and replies. I have been at work and haven't been able to address your concerns. I will try to do that now.

1. Everybody has had problems with this coach. He is constantly on the refs. To call him a hooligan would be an insult to the hooligans in the world.

2. We are required to ask these questions or some very similar variation of them.

3. The ADs of the middle schools want their games to resemble the varsity games as much as possible so they require the questions. If you don’t ask the questions, then some believe you can’t T the coach for unsportsmanlike behavior.

4. The coaches at this level should be just as professional as the ones at the high school because they are all certified teachers.

5. We have been asking these questions for at least 3 and possibly 4 years. Every coach knows they are coming. When the R walks over at the 3 minute mark, both coaches usually stand up and walk out to meet him. Everyone knows it is part of the ritual.

6. In the 100s of games I’ve been the R for, I have never had a smart-aleck remark. Of the 1000s done by my peers and friends, this is the only problem I have heard about.

7. Every coach I’ve ever asked always answers with a yes. The only exception is at a BV site where I’ve reffed several times. The coach there has a short fuse but he knows this. When he is asked if he’ll display good sportsmanship, he always smiles and says “I’ll try”.

Once again, I thank you for all of your comments and advice.

In Oregon, we are required to ask these questions or something like them:
<OL><LI>Coach, are your players properly equipped...shirts in, no jewelry, etc?
<LI>Will your team display good sportsmanship
</OL>

No matter their answer (yes or no), we are to say thank you and move on.

Everyone either says yes or "if you see otherwise, let me know because I won't tolerate it".

I suppose the delivery, if not done in the right way (too harshly or accusingly), could elicit an unfavorable response in some cases.

What about the new coaches? I work primarily HS games and you would be surprised by the amount of coaches that are totally unaware of common procedures. Especially those coaches that are new at the varsity level. Just because a procedure is in place does not mean every coach is aware or used to it. It is also possible that other officials are not asking these questions as it is required and this coach is responding the way he did because he is not commonly asked.

That is not a justification for the policy. All it takes is one situation or the right situation and things can change drastically. Look at what happen in the NBA this year for example. The current procedures we have about sportsmanship and where we conduct that meeting all started from one reported event between an official and a player. Now because of this reported incident coaches have to be involved in the pregame meeting and a sportsmanship statement has to be made by the Referee (the same procedure filtered to all sports before the NF changed the rules). And not all officials did everything that was "required" or followed the procedure to the letter. So when I would come around and do what was required, there were many coaches unaware of what they were "required" to do.

If I have learned anything in all my sports officiating career, it is not the common situation or play that gets us in trouble. It is the unusual play or situation that draws all the attention. ;)

Peace

Always accountable.
 

I don't ask those questions during my coaches meeting... BUT I STILL HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE. So what really is the purpose of the questions?

If someone really thinks there is some validity to the questions and his answers then why don't we go a step further and add some more physical validity by forcing him (you force him to give the approved answer) to sign a contract. No contract, no coaching.

Then when his sportsmanship lapses (judged by us, the officials), we can shake the signed contract in front of his face, in front of the entire crowd. "Coach you're not living up to your end of the contract; I'm going to have to T you."

I'm being facetious of course. I don't see the validity of asking the questions. And Dan I do feel it is belittling, demeaning, and confrontational to force a person into a subservient position where they must physically give a particular, prescribed answer. Not that I don't think the chain of command isn't correct. It is just not good personal/social skills. You don't win friends and influence people by forcing others.

Re: Always accountable.
 

Good call, DownTownTonyBrown.

Re: Always accountable.
 

Tony, I couldn't care less about the questions and I'm not on any state or league boards that force this stuff. But I also don't think it's any big deal one way or the other. If this is how they want to do it, I'll comply. If the coaches don't like it that way, they can work on changing the rule. But they can't mouth off to me. They've gotta submit just like I have to.

I agree leave it up the school administration to weed out the jerks.

Re: Always accountable.
 

I believe they do something like this in Colorado. I was teaching there about four years ago, not coaching by doing the clock for Bball games. Before every game JV and Varsity, the coaches had to sign some kind of sportsmanship card. I don't know what the penalty was if a coach refused to sign, probably foreit of the game and I don't know if they still do it. Maybe some Colorado refs can help out here..

Re: Always accountable.
 

Then you lead a very sheltered life my friend.

"Have you packed these bags yourself and have they been in your control since then?"

"How are you this evening sir?"

"Do you know why I pulled you over this evening sir?"

"How do you plead?"

"Do you take this woman..."

"Does this dress make me look fat?"

"Care to see our wine list?"

"Will you display good sportsmanship throughout the entire game?"

Only an idiot or a sociopath would not understand these questions, among others, require an extremely limited set of answers. With no intent to "belittle".

Re: Re: Always accountable.
 

Dang it, Sparky!
I got this one wrong.
I thought speeding, but it was a $50.00 seat belt. :(
mick

Re: Always accountable.
 

Hey, I kind of like that idea....:D

Good one Tony!!!!

JR is right. You can cause fewer problems by different wording and still get the same point across. "Don't forget about sportsmanship and have fun out there!"

If the coach is going to be a jerk, we will handle it during the game. No sense "egging" him on before the game starts. If he responded like he did, I'd just smile and end the pre-game conference and remember to file that comment for later reference.

How much is that in U.S. funds?

Re: Re: Re: Always accountable.
 

Last November I got stopped coming home from a game.

68 in a 55.

Constable on patrol does me a favor, $50 seat belt.

He didn't mention the town's $65 "handling fee". :rolleyes:

Oh well, no points on the license.

about the equivalent worth of your President in jelly beans...:D

Re: Re: Always accountable.
 

Dan, you are getting rather personal. Did you make up the requirement that someone ask these question? You seem to be defending them rather strongly and you act as though I have personally affronted you. Perhaps it is just the use of the word 'belittle.' Who is taller you or Chuck? :)

I'm not sure I could arrive at the same connection from the questions you have listed - for the most part they seem to have a wide variety of potential answers. But which is it that you think I am, the idiot or the sociopath? :D

I'm thinking the fact that I responded when I didn't need to... points toward idiot. Probably not enough information to judge the sociopath thing.;)

Re: Re: Re: Always accountable.
 

Nope, all I'm saying (which I've been saying all along) is that the local admninistrators have every right to define what needs to be discussed at the pregame coaches meeting. Whether you or I agree with it is not the question. And for sure the question is NOT does such a question "belittle" anyone (btw whether you realize it or not by introducing "belittlement" as a rationale for the coach's behavior you appear to have bought completely into the current bad notions of "disrespect", "manhood", and the like which many folks use as an excuse to pop someone in the eye...or put a bullet into them. But I digress...). The question is why does this coach feel the need to NOT comply with the local regulations? Certainly he knws about it, why not just be a man about it and give the expected answer and let everyone get on with their lives?

Now you've gone too far!! :)
Yeah, we agree there. ;)

Dan,

You can be disrespectful and belittle people without having gun play. Come on Dan, no one is suggesting that the coach had the right to blow someone away. Many are just suggesting that the questions are unnecessary and silly. Those questions invite a response that is not going to be just a simple "yes."

Peace

I'm not saying one follows the other necessarily. I'm saying that the idea that a man cannot endure even the slightest forms of "disrespect" without violence (either real or threatened) is something that has gotten to be a real problem over the last 10 or 15 years or so. I don't mean to say it never happened. I mean to say when it did happen 'back in the day' it usually involved a genuine psycho ("don't mess with so-and-so, he's nuts!"). These days it's almost required, at least that's the culture across all groups. But of course all that is completely besides the point, and of course I don't mean to say one fine day a coach will blow someone's head off prior to introductions and the national anthem. Again, the point is we live in a world where others have some level of authority over us. Even Donald Trump, bless his orange tinted comb-over, needs to go begging to banks to bail his @ss out of bankruptcy yet again every couple of years. "The powers that be" decided the officials & the coaches need to have this discusson before the game. The officials & coaches should comply. If a coach takes it as an excuse to get all pissy with the refs then he's not adult enough to be put in his position of authority over his players.

Again, this is not about whether I think the discusson is a good, bad or silly idea (I do think it's kinda silly myself). It's about you do what you need to do without being a jerk about it.

OK Dan. :rolleyes:

The question for me is about the silly questions. That is why I asked him the questions I did. These questions do not invite good will or make the game better. That is really all I am saying. Disrespect or no disrespect, the questions invite a smart *** comment. All those examples you gave have people respond is a hostile manner. I have been on a plane many times and when the person behind the desk asks, "Did you let anyone handle your luggage?" The response from people is not a simple "yes." I would always here something kind of smart *** comment or someone trying to be funny. They do not ask you before you get on the plane, "Do you think you will behave the entire flight?" That would be silly. So are these questions about sportsmanship. All you need to do is make a simple statement about how important sportsmanship is, you do not need to have people look into the future and tell you what kind of behavior everyone is going to have when we do not know what kind of adversity is going to take place.

Again, just an opinion. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown Who is taller you or Chuck? Now you've gone too far!!

Or you could look at it another way. Maybe Chuck is the one that doesn't go far enough.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown Who is taller you or Chuck? Now you've gone too far!! Or you could look at it another way. Maybe Chuck is the one that doesn't go far enough.

...Intelligence out of this world with his feet touching the ground?
He's good.
mick

I have the wonderful coach today in the Middle School tournament semifinals. I'll let you know how it goes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown Who is taller you or Chuck? Now you've gone too far!! Or you could look at it another way. Maybe Chuck is the one that doesn't go far enough. ...Intelligence out of this world with his feet touching the ground? He's good.

Cranky l'il feller though:
http://uselessgraphics.com/basket04.gif

They give a lot of weight to these pregame conferences here. In my first Rec game, I gave a T and did a game report on a player who said "F@#k him. He's really pi$$ing me off. I'm tired of his sh!t." after my partner called a foul on him. Rec said they'd normally suspend a player for that but since we didn't have a pregame meeting, they couldn't. My response to that was I'd never cover that in a pregame meeting.

Jeff, you're funny.

Both my sons acted this way until they were about 17 or so.

They're more fun now that they've grown up.

I would rather not say what was really thinking. You tend to get offended rather easily. I will just let it go. ;)

Peace

Now there's something new.

Actually Dan it isn't new at all. I just do not publicize when I will not comment. Or I leave things out of my posts to save feelings. I know the type of things based on past discussions that upset you, so I choose to bite my tongue on this one.

Peace

I had the belligerent coach today. I was with a "Big Dog" referee and he handled the coaches' meeting. I had warned him about the improper responses but he responded that the Belligerent coach simply answered yes to all questions. He also made very few comments during the game which is really STRANGE for him.

I knew you couldn't let it go. Thanks, I won $5.

Not sure how you won $5 bucks. I still did not tell you what I was going to say. Oh well.

I guess I was not supposed to say anything. :rolleyes:

Peace

No no, keep talking.

$5 more btw. Thanks!

:D

Well if it means that much to you.
 

OK. Is that what you are looking for?
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_15_8v.gif' alt='Money 4' border=0></a>

Peace

Re: Well if it means that much to you.
 

Well, no, not from you. You're like the horse in a race. Come in first or last and all you get is a bag of oats and a wipedown.

(btw, that's $5 more.)

OK Dan.

Peace

Dang...big Dan...not to get to personal...
but, whatta ya got waitin' for you at home? ;)

When I lived in NC several years ago, I got stopped for doing 50 in a 35 zone and the officer told me that 15 over the posted speed limit could be considered reckless driving and he could suspend my license on the spot. Whoa! Actually, he was sorta cool about it and gave me a warning - told me to quote "slow your butt down". He was also interested in my tags. I had recently returned from working in Germany for 5 years and I still had the green USA tags that should have been replaced within 30 days of my return. I had been back 4 months. Guess that was my lucky day.

:)

:)

[/B][/QUOTE]Yup. Beautiful long hair, great personality, dark luminous eyes, never argumentive, always ready to play......
http://www.topgoldenretrieversites.n...mphis0120a.jpg

Yup. Beautiful long hair, great personality, dark luminous eyes, never argumentive, always ready to play......
http://www.topgoldenretrieversites.n...mphis0120a.jpg [/B][/QUOTE]

...loves to chase squirrels & roll around in deer sh!t, swims with nothing but a necklace on, chases the mailman (I don't think I'll ever stop that one) and loves taking a bath every other week.

:p

Aweful...
 

Getting back to the subject matter...this situation makes me want to puke!

I fear these state associations are turning too PC over the years. When I first started long ago, I was told to stay away from one, the table, and two, the coaches. The less interaction the better and I personally still feel this way.

Over the years, it has gone from stay away from the coaches, to wishing the coaches good luck, to now asking the coaches if he has his players equipped properly and if he is teaching them good sportsmanship. Geez, what will be next? "Are your players all wearing jocks?" How about, "Will your players practice good hygine and shower after the game?"

I recently moved to another state and was frankly a little shocked at these coaches "meetings" the first few times I worked. I thought the referee was brown-nosing the coaches becasue I never did, and never will ask him if he is teaching his kids good sportsmanship. Personally, I don't care if my association wants it or not, it is none of my business how he wants to coach his team. If it comes down to me "having" to do it, that might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Besides, what is he supposed to say? Of course he will say "yes" to all the above. Then what when a player is wearing an illegal knee brace or an earring? His fault or mine?

Personally, I like it the old way. I don't feel comfortable even shaking hands with the person who in about 5 minutes will be questioning my ancestry, not to mention my sight, judgement, etc. It is pure B.S.

I give it the same status as the line after every game, "Nice game ref!" This being after I have T'd him, he has told me all kinds of nice stories about my wife and kids, questioned my eyesight, my ability, my looks. Oh, and his team won by 30 but the fouls were overly in the other teams favor. Did I have a relative player for them? Oh, by the way, "nice game, anyway."

I'm all for good sportsmanship and will address it to the captains of each team and what I deem as unsportsmanlike behavior before the game.

But the coach? Next years question will be (while having the coach place his left hand on the good book and raising his right hand):

"Coach, do you solemly swear that you will honor the coaches box, the entire game?"


goose

Re: Aweful...
 

I enjoyed your post, Goose. ;)
mick

...loves to chase squirrels & roll around in deer sh!t, swims with nothing but a necklace on, chases the mailman (I don't think I'll ever stop that one) and loves taking a bath every other week.

[/B][/QUOTE]Sounds like not a bad lifestyle (except for maybe the mailman part).

Ready...
You can try what I do. It works for me. I say, "We want good sportsmanship tonight." Then I turn to the coaches and point to both of them (open palms, not an accusing finger) at the same time. "Coaches, sportsmanship starts on the bench. We're counting on you to be good examples and show good sportsmanship." I started this after asking if they would show good sportsmanship and got a few attempts at humor that made them look stupid! I don't ask them if they will, I tell them in front of their captains that it is expected.

Re: Aweful...
 

Things have changed. I greet coaches by first name, shake their hands, and actually smile once in a while. While our relationship is, by nature, adversarial at times, I've found that it becomes that way far less when we treat coaches as equals and as human beings.

Goose,

I am with Rich on this one, but I see your point. We really do not need to be asking all those questions. I can maybe understand asking them about being properly equip. We do that in other sports. But to ask them about something that is going to happen in the future is just plain silly. I have no problem with greeting coaches and wishing them good luck at all. That is a very professional thing to do especially at the high school level where all the adults are supposed to be teaching these kids life lessons or things beyond the classroom. I just think we do not need to ask them their blood pressure and their SAT scores.

Peace

Jeff,

Illinois requires that we invite coaches to the captain's meeting. I think this is a bit over the top myself -- in WI we simply greet the coaches at 1:30 and ask two simple questions. Players attired? Promote sportsmanship? Of course, I greet them by first name before they even introduce themselves and I am friendly so I never get any problems....

I'm surprised people find this to be a big deal.

--Rich

You know the reason we have to have the coaches involved in that meeting and near the table? Some official had some kind of inappropriate and unprofessional conversation with one of the captains during that meeting. From what I heard someone said something about "having a beer" and the captain told his or her coach and now we have the situation that is the procedure today. Sometimes we can be our worst enemy.

Peace

I'm not surprised, not in the least bit.

Sounds like not a bad lifestyle (except for maybe the mailman part). [/B][/QUOTE]

I would give up the "roll around in deer sh!t" part way, way, way before the mailman.

Our state requires the procedure before the game, but it's only one question - "Are all your players properly equipped?", and a statement about expecting good sportsmanship.

It is a little ridiculous, but I guess someone in the ivory tower thought that reminding coaches about good sportsmanship will all of sudden cause that lunatic coach to go "Oh, that's right! I'm supposed to be a role model!"

The rest of us treat it as a 30 second intro to the refs - shake hands, nod at the right places, and go back to your team.

Rich,

Do you know all the coaches by name or do you get their names somehow? Our association is so big that we may not see the same team more than once a season. I'm bad with names but will definitely try to learn each coach's name and incorporate your idea.

Thanks!

Uh, grab a program on the way in. ;)
mick

I greet every coach the same way: Hello Coach!" then introduce myself if they are a new team for me and I always conclude with, "Good Luck, Coach!" Some of these guys are friends of mine and my son's former coaches. I've also coached their kids in Jr. High Soccer or Little League baseball. They know I am going to call everything fairly and without favoritism, but I don't want to appear too familiar with one guy(lady) and not the other. This works for me.

Program?

What program?

ReadyToRef,
Well, how can ya tell the players without a program? :)
mick

I go by the numbers that they always seem to be wearing, for some strange reason, on their shirts.

That's one way. We always grab a program in case something needs to be written up for the state office. The better way is to look up the names in the state's Internet directory or on a website dedicated to basketball (wishoops.net here).

Friday night the coaches were Kurt and Mary and the AD was Lois. :)

Not to beat a dead horse....
 

For all of you who enjoyed my triad, thanks. It's been a long winter for me. After nearly 20 years, it has not been easy starting over in another part of the country.

Anyway, to those of you who ask the coach, "Coach, are your players properly equipped?" My question to you is what if during the game you discover they aren't?

Again, is this his fault or your teams fault? Aren't we supposed to check to insure that the players are dressed properly and that no jewelry, hard braces, etc. are worn?

So, what if you discover that player "x" is not properly dressed after the game has started. Do you "T" the coach? Just what is your procedure for handling a stray ear ring? Look, I know you will make them take it off, but I'm trying to make you see the bigger picture.

To me the point is moot. Are these associations now saying that we do not have to check for illegal uniforms, ear rings, long fingernails, undergarments, etc.? If this is the case, then I'm all for it. If it is not, then what is the point in asking the coach this question if in the end my partners and myself are still responsible?

And furthermore, if there is no penalty involved when found out, again, what is the purpose? Idle chatter to me.

As far as the coaches being part of the pregame with the captains, I don't have a problem with that, and in fact would rather drop the captains and simply speak to the coaches and let him or her relay the information to his or her players. Captains never pay attention anyway and it used to become somewhat of a running joke with guys I worked with to see who could do the pregame the quickest. I was told more than once by D-1 college guys (this includes camp) that if it lasted more than 10 seconds, you were talking to much. So I tend to make it short and sweet. The fewer words I say the better.

As for rapport with the coaches, I'm all for that too, but at what cost? One coach always thinks that the other coach is getting over on one or all the ref's if a ref is chatting with a coach. I never call a coach by his first name either even if I know him. I just address them as "coach" and I expect them to address me as "ref" and not use my name. If they do use my name, I will be quick to let them know I would appreciate it if they simply call me ref. If the other coach hears that, I could be in for and even longer night.

But all this conferencing with players and coaches is beginning to be just to much for me, as it really does nothing. Ohh, it does do something. More often than not, I have heard a coach say, watch so-and-so because last time we played, they did this or that. Just another opportunity to add their pre-game 2 cents into the mix.

As I said, the less I have to speak with the coach, the better.

goose

Re: Not to beat a dead horse....
 

goose,
RE: "<U> My question to you is what if during the game you discover they aren't?</U>"
I ask them to remove it, or sit.

RE: <U><I>The rest</I></U>
How do you really feel about it? ;)

mick

Goose,

You bring up some valid points. I prefer not to do the pregame meetings but they are required by my state. I prefer not to ask the questions but they too are required by my state. Now if I didn't do them, would someone at the state know? Probably not. BUT what if someone gets hurt and they find out you didn't ask the pregame questions? Is your butt now fried and your little referee career now over?

O.K.
 

to mick

>I ask them to remove it, or sit.

Exactly. So what is the point in asking the coach in the first place if it doesn't mean anything?


ready to ref,

>You bring up some valid points. I prefer not to do the >pregame meetings but they are required by my state. I >prefer not to ask the questions but they too are required >by my state. Now if I didn't do them, would someone at the >state know? Probably not. BUT what if someone gets hurt >and they find out you didn't ask the pregame questions? Is >your butt now fried and your little referee career now >over?

If someone gets hurt, how can they trace it back to your pregame with the coach?

My contention is that no matter if we ask the coach or not, we are still responsible for making sure the players are properly equipped. In the situation above, as I said, no matter that the coach says they are properly equipped, it is still our job to check! So again, my point is why ask in the first place if it is still our responsibility?

Are you saying that by asking the coach it absolves you or your crew from responsibility? It is still part of our warm up procedure so in effect we are still accountable no matter what the coach says, or doesn't say.

goose

Re: O.K.
 

Goose,
I suppose that since we ask initially, we can then just sit the player, request a sub and make the illegal uniform wait until the next dead ball before re-entering.

But that seems to be a lot of aggravation.
...However, if the opposing Coach wants that player to sit, I s'pose we should [make 'em sit].
mick

It is a pain to send the player back out until the next dead ball. Sometimes it corrects the problem for the remainder of the game but it usually doesn't. Does anyone wish there was a more severe penalty (violation or T for example)?

The trouble with that, ReadyToRef, is that we don't like to administer "cruel and unusual punishment".
Violation wouldn't work if the defender was illegal, loss of arrow would require another chapter, unsporting act ..., not even! :)
mick
<HR>
Hey kid! Take it off.

Goose
 

I'm with you man. Your line of reasoning, as I espoused earlier, is the only one that makes sense. We are responsible and that is completely independent of anything said in the coaches' meeting.

So why ask the questions. Get in. Get out. Get done.

If you have been instructed to ask a particular set of questions and it is important to your evaluation, then do so. I would recommend doing it just like a ploliceman does for the Miranda rights, read them off of a card. (let everyone know just how important it is that you get every word correct.) Appologize :p and "Get done."