First off, I'm an upset coach, I'll let you know that up front!

I'm looking for the official's viewpoint here, because I guess I'm missing something.

Situation - middle school game - 43-42 visitors with 17 seconds left. We are the home team. We give the foul to put the visitor's on the line, when the ref comes over and gives the sign for a T. I ask for an explanation and this what I get - "Your assistant stood up during the play - that's a technical."

Opposing player hits two free throws, we miss 2 3pt. attempts at the end, and lose 45-42.

Why in the world would the ref make that call in that situation?

Why was your asst. coach standing up?

Why did your players miss 2 shots to win the game?

Why are we jumping on this coach? Do you think an assistant standing is worth deciding a game on? Let the players determine who wins.

The players did determine the winner.

The coach's team had 2 opportunities to tie or win.

I'm asking for an official's point of view - is there any reasoning behind this call? The assistant didn't even speak to the refs - he was telling our PG to give the foul.

I never said we didn't have our chances - but the call obviously affected the game.

Coach:

I won't be the first official to tell you that I don't go looking for assistant coaches who are standing when they are not supposed to be standing. So I have to ask you a few questions.

1) Had a member of your bench personel (including you) already received a technical foul earlier in the game?

2) Whether that answer to #1 is yes or no, was your assistant caoch addressing the officials in a manner that could be described as unsportsmanlike?

MTD, Sr.

Every call effects the game.

Maybe the official considered the instuctions unsporting since he was telling them to foul (intentionally). Might be a little extreme, just offering another idea.

I'm not sure we're getting the whole story here. Sure, you occassionally see a traffic cop type official who just lives to find this kind of stuff. But I'm guessing that there were issues with this coach, assistant or bench earlier in the game.

I will say this, coach: There are things you can control and things you can't. The behavior of your assistants is one you can, and should control. Regardless of why the official made this call, and whether or not it should have been made, you can keep it from happening ever again by maintaining stricter control over your assistants.

Had he been warned earlier in the game to stay seated? That would make more sense.

Although if an assistant coach was standing JUST to instruct a player to stop the clock at the end of a close game, I would most likely not give a T, he still shouldn't be standing. If the standing is so necessary, why aren't you doing it?

It is at least possible that this is what happened. Especially in middle school, you'll be getting these kinds of folks who are inexperienced and haven't really learned to give a little here and there. Coach, my suggestion would be to let the assignor handle the ref. Let the assignor know what happened, but don't complain or rag. Really just information. If the assignor asks questions, answer them honestly, but don't give any other issues from that game. Just, "Hey, Fred, just so's you know..."

It would be interesting to know if there were other issues going on.

Coach, while I can't say whether or not I'd have made the call (I probably wouldn't have even noticed him since I pay far too little attention to coaches), I will say that the official was correct by rule. It's tough to question the call made by an official when a) he was right by rule; and b) we weren't there to see the rest of the game (context).
Obviously, the suggestion would be to make sure your assistants know the rule and to keep a tight reign on your bench.

I'm sure that we're <b>not</b> getting the whole story on this one. We're not getting the official's side obviously. In these types of arguments, often the stories from the opposing sides end up bearing little resemblance to each other. Peronally, I don't think that you can answer the coach's questions except very generally until you do hear what the official had to say.

As far as history goes, the ref before the ballgame told the assistant he would only speak to me - he was obviously intent on enforcing the rules about what an assistant can and can't do (I don't know, maybe he had a problem at his last game with an assistant.)

We had no T's on us at that point; though the home crowd had been on them all game about the calls (fouls were 21-5 against us), I don't bother anymore to complain - it doesn't do any good!

Rainmaker, thanks for your advice. That's pretty much what my AD said - inexperienced refs sometimes get assigned games, and he would let they county AD know what went on - hopefully we won't see the same guys on Thursday!

That one's part of our association's training, Coach. It's mandatory for all of our guys to make sure that you and your assistants know at the pre-game meeting that the head coach is the only one allowed to stand and also is the only one allowed to talk to the officials. Iow, maybe he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. The bottom line is that you were warned. You now ignore that warning at your risk.

That said, I'd almost bet my left one that if we asked the official, we'd find out that your assistant was whining at him. That's usually the cause of these type of "T"s- not just an assistant coach silently and innocently standing there.

I don't understand why some people on this board always feel the need to not answer some peoples question just to be an a$$. It seems like Dan ref doesn't like to answer certain questions.

Why can't the coach's question be answered if that is the way it happened.

I will give you my opinion coach. If your situation happened as you say it did, I think that official was a moron to give a T. I can not see any reason or good that can come from giving a T there unless the official wants to make sure that the game doesn't go into overtime.

I hope this helps more than some of the others here.

[Edited by Redhouse on Jan 26th, 2005 at 10:07 AM]

Coach, Juulie's (rainmaker's) comment is right on the money. At the middle school level, you can almost count on getting inexperienced refs, b/c that's where they get their experience. Inexperienced refs haven't always developed a sense for what is "appropriate and defendable" at every point of a ballgame.

Inexperienced officials get crammed full of rules and points of emphasis and where to stand and where to look. Bench decorum (including who is allowed to be off the bench) is a perpetual point of emphasis in many areas.

It is at least possible that you had an inexperienced official who knew (correctly) that your assistant is not allowed to coach while standing during any live ball in the game -- ever; but hasn't learned yet that a T in that situation is not a call we want to "live and die" with.

So while no one here (or hopefully in your locker room) will say that this official cost you the game, I think that if the situation happened as you describe it, we could probably agree that the T was not an appropriate call for that point of the ballgame.

Yeah, that's helpful. Thanks :rolleyes:

Regardless of the "letter of the law", 17 seconds left in a 43-42 game is NOT the time to "prove a point", unless the assistant is way over the top. Problem with that is, if you have let him get away with the behavior for the previous 31 minutes and change, you've "made your bed" and have to lay there.

I agree with Juulie, that this is probably more a case of inexperienced officials, than anything else.

A good learning experience however, by ALL parties invovled.

Chuck,

Why is it that I haven't posted for ages, yet when I finally see a topic of interest, you have to BEAT ME TO IT!
:confused: :D:

Maybe I should email you my posts to edit & approve before I post them?

Or just make him a moderator!

If the fans have been very vocal, it's likely that an inexperienced ref will think some of the "noise" is coming from the bench. Then when the fouls are very uneven, an inexperienced ref will think that your team is more aggressive, and the whole thing needs to be clamped down on. He will get a little touchy about any little thing anyone does. This seems to me like the best explanation. I speak from personal experience, since I was that same guy five years ago. If you intend to move up in your coaching, and he intends to move up with his reffing, you'll meet again. The best thing for you to do will be to give him another chance. He might improve -- if he's like I was, he's got no place to go but up!

WOW, you were a guy 5 years ago.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

Of course there is nothing wrong with that

I do think that Dan ref was out of line with his comments. Do we wonder why some coaches view us as adversaries rather than a moderator? Let's show the guy some respect since he sought us out to help him understand why something happened rather than let his steam build up towards refs.

About the original question, yeah, as mentioned, probably inexperienced. The only T I have ever given for an assistant "standing up" was when he kept whining and was a total pain after warnings to he and the head coach. Maybe there was some of that?

Well, I was "one of the guys", and I did "2-man" mechanics. At least according to the people who can't understand why women object to "man-to-man" defense. I'm not being defensive here, just pointing out how words can be ambiguous. I mean when it comes right down to it, don't a lot of our discussions have to do with what the meaning of "is" is?

Why were Dan's comments out of line? Put into perspective, his comments and questions were appropriate. Maybe the T was deserved, maybe it wasn't. But the game itself was not determined by that one call.

attaboy!

And I agree with both of you, lots of inexperience to go around in this sitch. Not just the officials. The coaches were probably too inexperienced to understand how the game is played (coach/ref game, not basketball game) to realize they needed to stay in control (yes, I think if we heard from the refs they would say the coaches definitely went over the top). IOO both parties (coaches & officials) violated the unwritten contract we work under that Drake pointed out.

Um? Which comments? I don't see anything that's even borderline. The coach asked a question and made an insinuation. Just because Dan didn't coddle the coach and immediately impugn the officials' credibility or competence doesn't mean he was out of line.

I have noticed that they lower the level, the more of these types of questions are asked. When you work varsity and college ball, they coaches often know why they got T'd up and how to solve that problem the next time. When we are talking about games at the middle school level, all kinds of stuff takes place there. Basically what we have are inexperienced officials dealing with just as inexperienced coaches. This is why these games can be very hard to officiate. Even when a veteran comes down and works those games and draws a clear line in the sand, you get these coaches that get more upset, because all the crap they pulled with officials that do not know any better, does not work with a veteran that works higher levels. The official could have been a veteran that did not care about the outcome of the game and wanted to send a message. All I know is that the official was by rule justified in his actions. Next time this coach might want to watch the actions of his assistants.

Peace

Who's jumping on the coach? I simply asked why the asst. coach was standing. What he was doing may have something to do with why he got a T.

DUH!

Don't be so damned judgmental.

Gee, thanks Juulie. Now I have a headache.

And how exactly do you know that the guy was <b>"probably"</b> inexperienced? Have you heard the official's story to get his side of what really happened? Why are you pre-judging that official anyway? You talk about giving the coach some respect, but whereinthehell is <b>your</b> respect to the official that you're judging and labelling without ever hearing his side?

Jmo, but I think that you are out of line with your comments a helluva lot worse than Dan.

Exactly! We got a whole pile of people dumping on the official, and not one of them knows what really happened or has heard the official's side. Lah me.

I'm getting in on this one way late, but here's my opinion. First of all, I agree with everyone that JH officials and coaches are often (but we really don't know in this case) inexeperienced. That's why they're at that level. I don't think, as an official I can say that the official was "wrong" to call the T. I wasn't there. I do know that the assistant by rule shouldn't be up. By being up, he's tempting fate. His action of standing opened the window for the T. I honestly wouldn't have called it unless he was complaining. Another issue here, that many of us have talked about in other posts, is with experienced officials, our tolerance level goes down as most of us go down with the level we are officiating. I feel like, and have been told at camps, that I'm a solid official. I'm not going to take far less abuse from fans and especially coaches than I would in a varsity game. Lastly coach, you post begins that you were still angry when you wrote. You have JH players to coach and model for. I understand being upset about losing. I'm all about playing to win. But at the JH level, isn't learning the game, enjoying the game, and learning sportsmanship the main thing? It sounds like your team played a good game. An official made a call at a critical time in the game that did hurt your chances to win. Its going to happen. Pat your players on the rear, tell them they did a nice job, and move on. Sorry this is so long. Maybe I should have posted earlier and more than once.

ART. 2 . . . The head coach and assistant coach(es) must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:

a. Confer with bench personnel and players within the confines of the bench area during a charged time-out or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
b. Attend an injured player when beckoned onto the court by an official.
c. Rise in front of their seat to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a member of their team or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to their seat. (See 1-13-2)

the above clearly states that if what tarheelcoach said was true to the letter, there was no reason for the "T". Wasn't there, can't honestly comment on the situation, but if it happened as stated it seems a little harsh.

It doesn't seem to me like tarheelcoach was looking for us to tear into the official so much as he was just wondering what to expect next time so he can warn his assistants. By the letter of the rule, the situation as described would be a T. However, I don't think the situation as described would really warrant a T. I'd think at least a warning would be in order (I know you can claim that was gone over in pre-game but that's a long ways from everyone's minds by that point in the game). I don't think the intent of the rule is to T anyone on the bench if they stand up without an allowed reason.

Which one of those three points said that the assisstant coach can stand up during a live ball and yell instructions to the point guard????

The best way to avoid the same thing from happening in the future would be for the head coach to put a seatbelt on his assistants. The rule is clear. So to avoid the possibility of an official enforcing the rule, don't break the rule. Simple as that.

Can anyone attest to having a head coach actually remain seated during the entire contest? Why have the coach's box then? It is rare to whack a head coach for standing to coach unless he has been warned, already seatbelted, or asks for it with his US conduct. It is not unusual to let them stand as long as they stay in the box area and don't come looking for trouble. This may not be a universally applied notion but it is what I do as opposed to strict enforcement.

Am I wrong for allowing it? Arguably, no.

Rule 1-13-2NOTE,as noted above, says that you can allow a coach to be on his feet and coach. That rule lets a coach stand and coach if their state allows the use of a coaching box. You have no reason(or right) to whack a head coach if they stick to coaching while standing within their box.

In Iowa, boys coaches are not allowed to stand and coach. I have to admit that I've not really enforced this well when they've stood. However, this year I've learned that it's best to do so, as both times I've let it go I ended up ringing the coaches up.

If you're talking inexperienced.... I resemble those remarks! <grin>

Here's my take coach and I've coached VB from 10yr olds to AAU to traveling national competition teams. So I know about the 'other' side of it too.

This is my first year working BB and for the life of me unless a coach or bench personnel was way over the line I don't mess with them. At the MS level the kids are still learning so I allow coaches to step onto the football field as well as onto the playing court from time to time to "coach" their players. It's a learning time.

Unfortunately it's also a learning time for first year refs. A place to cut their teeth. I don't make certain contact calls in one town's tournament and I get the tournament director watching me and my partner for the next few games because someone tells them our game is "out of control". I make the same calls in another game and I get it from the other side that I'm "too tight".

I worked a 9 game Saturday to help out another nearby town and took cr@p most of the day from half of the coaches. One told another, and they watched specifically for contact non-calls, and they told another, and so on until it became widely known our games were chaos and to watch out. But I was also told by a number of the coaches there they were satisfied with the job my partner and I had done.

Without a doubt, if I ever go back to that town to help them out of a bind and one would come up to me and complain, I would simply ask for my pay up to that point and hand them my spare whistle as I left so they could work the rest of the day.

As an "inexperienced" first year official, I worked games from 8am until 6pm on a Saturday I had off, with a one game break. I busted my tail and the teams, coaches and parents got to play a game and go rest for a few hours until they were back for their next game all refreshed.

I make mistakes and I miss some calls. But don't ever disrespect me. Personally I'm not sure if I'll stay with BB. I love working FB and I've played many sports myself. But I will go to my grave carrying the belief that BB coaches are the HUGEST whiners, complainers, eye-rolling, smirking, hand gesturing group of people I know.

Heck, I might just stay with it to spite them and prove myself. Either way, I am getting my JV assignments so I must be doing something right.

Tough break on your T though. All I can say is control your bench, coach your players and play the hands your dealt. I do, as I have no control over what coach will be at the games I work. I would suggest discussing the A's a B's of a play or call with the assignor/official a week or so after the game so the heat and emotion aren't coming into play. You may see a totally different viewpoint, or you may be totally correct in your assumption.

Best of luck to you during your season.

[Edited by WyMike on Jan 26th, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

Well done, Wymike. Darn near brought tears to my eyes.

The only time I've T'd a coach off the bench was when he was purposefully ignoring my 'firm but polite' insistence that he sit down and follow the bench decorum rule. When he completely blew me off, and was up arguing a call, he earned himself a technical. The coach of the other team follows the same rules and expects them to be enforced.

We simply don't have all the facts unless we ourselves are there to see what happened.

First off, I NEVER said, on this board or to my players, that the call cost us the game. Far from the truth. I lurk on this board so that I become as familar and comfortable with the rules as possible. This situation struck me as one that though MAYBE technically correct (it can certainly be argued that in that situation his standing qualifies as a spontaneous display of emotion), it was certainly a bad judgement call and I wanted to get the other side (I would suspended for approaching the ref after the game to ask him!)

I appreciate everyone's opinion and advice.

From now on I'll give my assistant a gentle shove back on the bench before the ref sees him!

Amen.

quote: "But I will go to my grave carrying the belief that BB coaches are the HUGEST whiners, complainers, eye-rolling, smirking, hand gesturing group of people I know."

Maybe you don't know the coaches that are working to change that image. I hope you have enough time before the grave that you meet one or two of us that will show you not all bb coaches whine, complain, gesture, smirk, stand, shout, or display other emotional outbursts that are inappropriate.

Coach G.

Coachgbert, he did not say all coaches. Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that you are one of the coaches that do not do this the statement is still accurate IMO.

Situation - middle school game - 43-42 visitors with 17 seconds left. We are the home team. We give the foul to put the visitor's on the line, when the ref comes over and gives the sign for a T. I ask for an explanation and this what I get - "Your assistant stood up during the play - that's a technical."


Am lost here now if u foul team B to put on the line and the ref comes over and "T" ur Assistant shouldn't team B have had more than 2 free throws.
Base on the score am assuming that the ref who gave the "T" is either not very experience at all or that Team B can't shoot free throws.
This is what I see, ur team fouls to put them on the line so he should get 2 free throws assuming ur in the double bonus + 2 more for the "T" and possesion of ball at midcourt so u would had to foul again to put them on the line and u only lost by 3 points. I have never seen a ref call "T" on an assistant when the game is that close. I was always taught to let the players decide the outcome of the game, knowing that the game is that close I don't think a head coach or an assistant would jeopardize a "T" when the game is almost over.
I'm sure that the head coach for both team was of the bench throughout the game and he did not "T" them so why should he "T" the assistant for being up too.

Team B may not have been in the bonus. Also, they may have gotten that many shots but they just missed some of them. After B got the ball at midcourt, B may not have fouled again, but A couldn't get the shot off. The coach only told us what was germane to his concern.

Let's look at another option...
 

Maybe I missed something in reviewing the thread, but in the situation described, I would have probably called an intentional foul on the player - opponent gets two free throws plus ball for inbound at spot closest to where foul occurred. The description of events described by tarheelcoach himself clearly warrants it - classic example on an intentional foul by rule definition.

Rather than T the assistant, I would probably just have told the head coach to keep his bench under control - assuming it hadn't been a problem previously in the game. If the assistant had been acting up previously, then I'd probably whack him too.

jurassic
 

Do we have the official's side? Is it possible to make some potential conclusions without both sides, especially when someone seeks out an answer, not some smartass remark from some ref that has done it long enough to think his crap don't stink? I, giving the best answer that we can probably determine with the information provided, did that. I will respect that ref whether my guess is wrong or right, but when someone is looking for an answer, then why not give our best guess?
I know there is a good ole boys club in here, so that is why I rarely post. Friendship beyond worth.

Re: jurassic
 

Fisk, part of the problem here is that there are very few coaches who come on here wanting an honest answer to a legitimate question. Personally, I think JR jumped on this coach a little early, but that's just because we've been jumped on so many times by coaches that we get a little self-protective. Usually, when a coach is talking about an end-of-game sitch with a point or two between the teams, it's because the coach wants to blame the loss on the ref. This coach appears not to have been aiming that way, but we didn't know that when we first saw him. It's hard to trust someone when you don't know him.

Re: jurassic
 

Fiskme,first of all, stick that "good ole boy" talk right up your butt. What you get from me is my opinion and my opinion only- and never anybody else's.

I don't have a problem with the coach in this thread at all, believe it or not. I have a major problem with people like you that will dump on a fellow official without ever hearing their side. I might agree with you that the official was wrong after hearing his story, but I am simply not gonna accept one side of this or any story without hearing the other side. That comes from a lifetime of hearing complaints from both sides.

If you wanna impugn a fellow official without hearing their side, then feel free to continue posting your "guesses" about him. I won't do that. That's my opinion, like it or not.

I find the part in bold a telling remark. I really would have liked to hear the official's side.

Perhaps tarheelcoach could show this website to the official in the aforementioned game. It is a good tool to improve ourselves at what we do. Maybe he could air his side of the story.

Coaches act this way in the lower levels because their only training is from watching NCAA and NBA games on television where coaches' antics are celebrated instead of being punished, and where commentators that have never read a rule book assess referees' performance. Very few coaches below the HS level understand the amount of training and preparation involved in becoming a referee and in maintaining the skill set.

Conversely, while many of this board's members are fanatical in being prepared, that attitude is not always shared by those refereeing below the HS level.

To expect volunteer coaches and underpaid referees to be perfect all the time is unrealistic. In an ideal world, coaches would be licensed by the same organization that licenses the referees, with mandatory annual re-qualifying. Trusting the health of our children to random volunteers is insane. However, there is a shortage of even unqualified coaches and referees in many areas, so this is unlikely to happen soon.

As for tarheelcoach's situation, taken at face value, this could well have been a referee who is studying as hard as he can and just happened to be currently studying the part about only the head coach being allowed to stand, so this may have been fresh in his mind as something to look at. Nonetheless, it is the head coach's responsibility to know that his bench personnel are confined to the bench (hence the name) and ensure that they follow this rule. A good guideline to follow is: Assistant coaches should be not seen and not heard.

Unfortunately, the coach does not know the rule. It does not allow standing for a "spontaneous display of emotion." Rather it is quite specific about when bench personnel may stand: "Rise in front of their seat to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a member of their team...but must immediately return to their seat"

This may seem petty, but it shows the slippery slope that coaches (and players) get into. They sort of know the rule, but not really. The asst. coach was not reacting to a great play; he was yelling for his team to foul. Certainly emotional...but clearly not even close to being covered by the rule.