I wanted to start a new thread on a specific play about a topic we have been discussing. A1 is holding the ball tightly with 1 hand. He is able to do this by using his forearm, bicep, and chest to aid his hand to firmly hold the ball. A1 is standing on the floor.
B1 gets 1 hand on the ball so firmly that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Is this a held ball or do both players have to have 2 hands on the ball? I think held ball.

Nothing says two hands are necessary for a held ball. Happens all the time on a shot. Shooter has ball in one hand, defender stops it with one hand. It stops ball from being released. Held ball.

Definitely a held ball. But this is not the same as the other thread's discussions. In your case, the player with the ball is clutching the ball with his arm tightly. The defender would have to use hand plus forearm at the very least to be able to clutch the ball in such a fashion that the offensive player couldn't pull the ball away. The other threads only referred to a hand touching the ball, not clutching the ball with hand and arm. See the difference?

Yup, and if a player on the floor has the ball held firmly betwwen both legs, and an opponent then puts a hand on the ball, is that a held ball too?

Btw, that one was in the case book many,many years ago.

Hey, DeNucci, get up to the attic.
I want a specific reference and quote!

That's a good one. I'm gonna say no, if it's just a hand on the ball. Would look pretty funny though. Now if a kid has the ball tight between his legs (I'm picturing a scrum on the floor here) and another kid grabs the ball with both hands or clutches it with his arm and can't pull it out from the kid's legs - then I have a held ball.

Snaqwells I'm not talking about a shot( normally that is an airbone shoter or passer). That is covered under 4-25-2. I'm trying to get a clarification on 4-25-1. This player is standing on the floor therefore a different rule applies.
Thanks,
Zanzibar

One hand does not equal two...or in this case a hand, wrist, and bicep.;)

What if the defender's one hand is pinning the ball to the body of the offensive player (along with the offensive player's arm pinning the ball to the body)? How is that different than one hand blocking a try that results in a held ball? In both cases the ball was pinned and not moving.

The difference is that the offensive player could simply pivot and pull the ball away from the defender. The defender doesn't have any grip on the ball such that it can't be pulled away.

"kicking" violation.

So if you catch the basketball in the endzone, does one butt-cheeek equal two feet?

SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

Why is it that the (s) is not shown in the Case Book?

NCAA 4-43 AR 30, part of which reads, "The intent of this rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage byu using any part of the leg."

The NFHS Rule is:

4-29 Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

I don't know in a high school game if holding it with your legs is considered striking it, but in my mind it isn't.

If the player has the ball land between their legs and they just squeeze it, nothing, if the ball is by their foot and they use their leg to pull it in, that is kicking.;)

The NCAA rule is the same.

JR asekd us to "predict" what was in an old case book. That's my prediction. I await MTD's next trip to his attic.

JR's mind is a dusty, old attic. To the best of my remembrance:
- the old case book play dated back to sometime in the 60's. It stated that holding the ball firmly between the legs was to be viewed to be the same as player possession, and that if an opponent placed a hand(s) -note one or two hands- so firmly on the ball that neither player could do anything---> held ball. That led to discussions about whether laying on top of the ball or trapping it in your armpit meant the same thing too with regards to "possession", or whether you could move your legs with the ball trapped between them to keep it away from an opponent. IIRR, the FED or somebody then sent out a memo saying that the case book play was being removed, basketball wasn't meant to be played with the legs, and that we should basically treat the play the same way that Bob has been describing. Iow it's a violation if you used your legs in any way to do something with the ball(example- pull it to yourself or away from an opponent) except reach down with your hands and grab it after you trapped it with your legs. I can't remember which violation it was that they recommended that we use, but "kicking" would seem to have been the logical one.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 23rd, 2005 at 01:44 PM]