This is a strange occurrance but I'll try to explain it the best way possible...

Last night in our varsity game, one of our girls went airborn for a shot. Before she released the ball, a defender put her hand on the ball and there was what appeared to be a held ball. However, before our shooter came back down with the ball, she passed the ball. This all happened very quickly. The official called it a jump ball. One of our other assistants thinks it shouldn't have been a held ball b/c she passed the ball b/f returning to the floor. Who was correct?

Once again, be gentle...

coachgrd

Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor. If B1 gets a hand on the ball, and still has hand on ball when A1 returns to floor, jump ball. If A1 gets hand on ball, but takes hand off ball before A1 returns to floor, traveling.

Really? I don't think returning to the floor has anything to do with it. If it looks like a shot and the shooter can't get the shot off because a defender has their hand on the ball, I have a jump ball. If she chooses to pass after the fact, I still have the same call. Am I wrong?

No, that's not true, Trigger.

4-25
A held ball occurs when:
An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor.

RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Did B1 prevent the ball from being released for a try? Yes. Held ball. Whether she returns to the floor with the ball, releases it or passes it, a held ball has occurred as B1 prevented the release of the shot.

4.25.2 "A held ball results immediately ..."

I disagree.
4-25-2
An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.----Held ball.

BktBallRef:

Do you have the rules book & case book on your computer or can you just type really really really fast! :) Just wondering, cause I'd like a copy if you do. Thanks

I will jump in without books, lets see how I do. The try is not over until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. This gives the player in the specified situation time to pull the ball back and pass it off without the ball becoming a held ball. It sounds like the official should have been a little more patient with the whistle.

Slight variation.

I had a girl driving the lane, picks up her dribble and holds the ball down by her hip as she begins her steps to start a layup. She is not airborne, but has started her shooting motion. A defender reaches and gets a hand on the ball, but it is not a case where I would call a normal jump ball. But the shooter loses her rhythm and ends up taking an extra step while she tries to regrip the ball, while the defender's hand is still on the ball, but not holding the ball. I called a travel. Wasn't a popular call. Did I get it right?

I just realized I used the term "reaches" in my example. May the referee gods forgive me... :)

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 20th, 2005 at 01:35 PM]

In the play described, the player got the pass off before returning to the floor. Under 4-25-2 listed, the ruling specifies that it is a held ball if the player is prevented from completing the pass or try. In this case, the pass was completed. The pass was able to be thrown, how is it a held ball?

But the original post said the girl was attempting a try first, then passed after the held ball. The held ball on the try occurred before the pass attempt.

I think you don't have an immediate jump ball. If the player released the ball voluntarily, play on, unless they retain possesion. If they voluntarily release and keep possesion without a subsequest touch by another player, travel.

You can only have a held ball if the player is prevented from passing <b>or</b> shooting. Iow, you have to prevent both. How could you possibly say a pass was prevented when the player actually did pass the ball? :confused:

Athletic Rules Study has the Rule Book, Case Book and S&I Book on the CD in Windows Help file format.

Because, as 4.25.2 states, "A held ball results immediately..." As soon as the shot is prevented from being released, the held ball occurs. It makes no difference what happend after that.

BsktBallRef,
I don't disagree with what you're saying but if you are a little patient with the whistle here (we're talking about fractions of seconds) the player got rid of the ball and you could play on without the held ball. This can help improve the flow of the game by keeping it moving.

The complete case book play 4.25.2 says that A1 is jumping to try for goal <b>or to pass the ball</b>, and that B1 prevented A1 from releasing the ball.The RULING says that it's a held ball <b>when</b> airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball <b>to pass</b> <font color = red>or</font> try for goal. In this particular sitch, B1 <b>never</b> prevented A1 from passing. If B1 hadda prevented A1 from passing as well as shooting, then I would say "yes, that's an <b>immediate</b> jump ball at the time when both are prevented.

Just can't agree with you on this one, Tony. Imo, this one isn't a violation until the airborne shooter is prevented from both shooting <b>and</b> passing, and he never was prevented from passing.

I stand corrected. I bow to you all. :)

JR -- In strict logic rules, the word "or" doesn't mean both, it means one only is good enough. "If you have a red coat, or green boots, you may enter the building" means that both people with red coat but no green boots, and people with no red coat but green boots will be in there. If the rule says that the defender prevents shot OR pass, that means only one need prevented to have the held ball.

Not that it's all that relevant to the overall discussion, but in formal logic, "or" means "at least one" which implies "possibly both". So in your example Juulie, people with a red coat and green boots would also be admitted.

Formally, you are correct, but for efficiency's sake, any process put in place to analyze an OR situation would only look for one of the various options. In other words, as soon as you see the red coat, there's no need to look for green boots. He's in.

I'm a software engineer....I can't help myself. The geek in me just comes out. :)

AHA! You said it! The rule does NOT say that the player has to be prevented from shooting AND passing the ball. It says shooting OR passing the ball. The case play is simply addressing a player that jumps and tries to shoot OR pass, not necessarily both. As Bob Jenkins said, the jump ball occurs immediately. I agree with him and the case book.

If you don't call the held ball, then you penalize the defense. That's like holding the whistle on a traveling violation because you think the player will get rid of the ball.

I'm not going to ignore things that SHOULD be called just to help the flow of the game. If the defender makes a good play, he should be rewarded, not ignored.

Case Book >4.25.2
Says (keep A1 from releasing ball) but in case in ? A1 has time to pass ball.
No call.

Well that certainly clears it up. I wish we had though to look at the case play. :(

I take it that was a slam for being so stuuned.
Sorry for trying an imput.
Will try to do better.

Well, between the imputs and the red coats and green boots, I'm a little stuuned myself right now. I think that I still agree with what I wrote before though, whatever the hell that was.

LOL!

I had a play last year in a game attended by the director of officials for Iowa. A1 goes up for a shot and gets it stuffed by B1, momentarily preventing a release. B1 immediately releases, and A1 ends up kicking it OOB. I called for B ball.
After the game, he said he thought I should have called a held ball since it prevented the shot from being released, at which point you "immediatly" (by rule) have a held ball. Taking that to the play at hand here, I've got a held ball since the shot was prevented from being released. I'm also going with Juulie's interpretation of the word "or" in the rule book.

What is the other interpretation of the word "or" ?

I inferred from Woody's posts that he was interpreting "or" to mean both conditions must exist.

That would then be a misinterpretation of the meaning of "or" ;)

I think that depends upon the meaning of the word "is." :D

Jay, my point is that the case play you cited is what we're discussing. We know it exists. We're debating how it applies. To just cite the play is about 2 days late at this point.

That's how Woody was interpreting it. Held ball if the defender can stop the opponent from doing both.

Actually what Juulie is describing is an *exclusive* or: A or B is true but not both A & B are true.

:)

Actually what Juulie is describing is an *exclusive* or: A or B is true but not both A & B are true.

[/B][/QUOTE]And you can take that to the bank too, folks, because Dan is the veritable epitome of <i>stuunitity</i>.

And he's warm too, which also pisses me off no end. Yeah, every now and then, just sitting here at the 'puter, I burst into a rousing rendition of <i>Do you know the way to San Jose?"</i>. :D

No, I'm not. Chuck got it right, it COULD be both, but it doesn't HAVE to be. The defender COULD prevent both the shot and the pass, but he doens't have to prevent both. If he prevents only one of the two, it's still a held ball.

And btw, what's Dan doing in San Jose?!?

1) Chuck got it right, it COULD be both, but it doesn't HAVE to be. The defender COULD prevent both the shot and the pass, but he doens't have to prevent both. If he prevents only one of the two, it's still a held ball.

2)And btw, what's Dan doing in San Jose?!?
[/B][/QUOTE]1) Nope, I'm saying Chuck got it wrong, just for the record. The defender has to prevent <b>both</b> to have a held ball. If the player with the ball can shoot <b>or</b> pass, then the defender hasn't prevented everything.

2) Sunbathing and laughing <b>his</b> a$$ off at all us goobers that are freezing <b>our</b> a$$es off.

1) Nope, I'm saying Chuck got it wrong, just for the record. The defender has to prevent <b>both</b> to have a held ball. If the player with the ball can shoot <b>or</b> pass, then the defender hasn't prevented everything.

2) Sunbathing and laughing <b>his</b> a$$ off at all us goobers that are freezing <b>our</b> a$$es off. [/B][/QUOTE]

1)How do you figure? OR has a meaning out there in the world. It means "only one is necessary". I know the rule book doesn't always follow the rules, but it sounds like you're saying the rule book meaning is the opposite of what the regular meaning is. So how do you arrive at that conclusion?

2) 68 and sunny here in Portland today. I don't feel the least bit sorry for MYself!

1)How do you figure? OR has a meaning out there in the world. It means "only one is necessary". I know the rule book doesn't always follow the rules, but it sounds like you're saying the rule book meaning is the opposite of what the regular meaning is. So how do you arrive at that conclusion?

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I'm saying that I'm not the brightest official around. When the player with the ball went airborne, I'm usually not 100% sure whether his original intention was to shoot the ball or pass the ball. If he isn't prevented from doing both, how do I know for sure that the act that he ended up doing was the same act that he intended to do when he went airborne? That's why I try to hold the whistle on these plays.

Your turn now. Is that brilliant logic or a wussy cop-out? :)

Nope, I'm saying that I'm not the brightest official around. When the player with the ball went airborne, I'm usually not 100% sure whether his original intention was to shoot the ball or pass the ball. If he isn't prevented from doing both, how do I know for sure that the act that he ended up doing was the same act that he intended to do when he went airborne? That's why I try to hold the whistle on these plays.

Your turn now. Is that brilliant logic or a wussy cop-out? :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Wussy cop-out. What difference does it make what he intended? We're not supposed to read minds. If he was trying to release the ball, and the defender got a hand on and prevented it, it's a held ball at that instant, regardless of what happened next. That is clearly the spirit of the rule.

And you haven't explained why you interpret "or" to mean "and" against all the rules of logic, language and common sense.

1) What difference does it make what he intended? <font color = red>We're not supposed to read minds</font>. If he was trying to release the ball, and the defender got a hand on and prevented it, it's a held ball at that instant, regardless of what happened next. That is clearly the spirit of the rule.

2) And you haven't explained why you interpret "or" to mean "and" against all the rules of logic, language and common sense. [/B][/QUOTE]1)Yup, problem is though that the defender <b>didn't</b> prevent the player from releasing the ball. The player <b>did</b> release the ball. On a pass. If you're not supposed to read minds, then how do you completely, positively, 110%(that one's for Chuck) surely know that the player didn't want to pass in the first place? Personally, not being all-knowing, I am never that totally positive. Any doubt at all,.....

2) I interpret "or" to mean that the player was prevented from doing both acts. Iow, he couldn't shoot <b>or</b> pass. Of course, I have to admit that I am not the cunning linguist that Chuck is.

I personally think that the spirit and intent of this particular section of the rule is to reward a defender for stopping an airborne player from making any kind of a controlled basketball play. If the airborne player can still play through a defender touching the ball and get a pass off before coming down, then I don't think that the defender ever had firm enough control of the ball to warrant a held ball. Jmo.

Well yes, you are:


"If you have a red coat, or green boots, you may enter the building" means that both people with red coat but no green boots, and people with no red coat but green boots will be in there.

You've excluded people with red coats and green boots from your party - A (red coats) or B (green coats) is true but both A and B is not true.

Quote:

And btw, what's Dan doing in San Jose?!?

Staying warm.

But now I'm back here in Siberia with a free weekend thanks to the snow which we're all promised.

BTW, what JR is saying (I think) is formally called NOT A or B. IOO, if neither a pass or a shot occurs we have a held ball. Which is quite different form what (I think) you are saying, which is a held ball occurs if either a pass is prevented or a shot is prevented.

In practice I am happier with myself if I do not call a held ball when a defender's hand is on the ball but a pass is made (NOT A or B)



[Edited by Dan_ref on Jan 22nd, 2005 at 12:33 PM]

Me too. Neither a pass or a shot was prevented, play on.

In practice I am happier with myself if I do not call a held ball when a defender's hand is on the ball but a pass is made (NOT A or B)

[/B][/QUOTE]In practice, I am even happier with myself if I do not call a held ball when a defender's hand is on the ball and the airborne player then powers through and makes a <b>shot</b>. :eek: Whole bunch of coach-soothing to be done if you call a held ball on that one.

Since when do you care what coaches think? :confused:

Since when do coaches think? :p

When http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/pig2.gif

I guess we can't use this anymore

http://freeenergynews.com/newstuff/i...freeze_300.jpg

since we already had this

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAGA020.jpg