Majority rule?

[ChristianHog1965]

Good Morning. I have a rules question please.

Scenario: Player takes a shot with one second left that is signalled as a 3-pointer by two of the three officials working the game. The bucket gives the shooter's team a 1-point victory as time expires. However, the lead official signaled the bucket to be a 2-pointer. The officials spend five minutes reviewing the play and eventually reverse the call on the court and made it a 2-pointer sending the game into OT.

Question: Is there a "majority rules" situation when it comes to the officials calls or does the lead official carry more weight?

Background: (excerpt from a story in today's Arkansas Democrat Gazette)

"With: 01.8 seconds on the clock in regulation Wednesday at LSU, Arkansas forward Mike Jones sank a basket around the top of the key.

Before releasing the shot, Jones stepped on the 3-point line, then moved his foot back.

Two officials signaled a 3-pointer, and it was registered that way on the scoreboard: Arkansas 59, LSU 58. "We thought it was a 3 just like everyone else in the arena and we were going to shake hands," Heath said.

However, Tom Eades, the officiating crew chief and official closest to the shot, called it a 2-pointer.

With the disagreement, the officials went to the score table to check the video.

Upon reviewing the video of the basket for about 5 minutes, the officials ruled it a 2-pointer and the game went into overtime.

After the game, LSU’s sports information department collected a statement by Eades about the decision. "When I made the call on the floor, it was originally a 2," Eades was quoted. "We went to the replay to be sure. It was inconclusive and didn’t show us his foot was not on the line."

I am obviously a partial fan and feel that the razorbacks were robbed of the victory by a very poor decision. I have seen the video several times and it looks like his foot is behind the line, although it is very close.

Thanks!
God Bless

[Edited by ChristianHog1965 on Jan 20th, 2005 at 08:34 AM]

[tjones1]

Majority helps but it does rule. I didn't see the play, however usually in those situations if the other official wasn't 110% sure it was a two, he/she wouldn't have said anything.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
Good Morning. I have a rules question please.

Question: Is there a "majority rules" situation when it comes to the officials calls or does the lead official carry more weight?

Neither.

[Adam]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Neither.

Usually, if I'm lead, the lead official carries more weight than the trail. Sometimes you can almost see the court tilt.

[dblref]

You are not going to have all 3 officials making the "signal". If there is a discussion, all 3 will probably be involved. In 3 person, the trail and center mirror each other. In 2 person, the lead does not mirror the trail, but the trail does mirror the lead.

[w_sohl]

Why the hell is the lead in a three man game looking at the three point line anyway.

[gordon30307]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
[B]Good Morning. I have a rules question please.

Scenario: Player takes a shot with one second left that is signalled as a 3-pointer by two of the three officials working the game. The bucket gives the shooter's team a 1-point victory as time expires. However, the lead official signaled the bucket to be a 2-pointer. The officials spend five minutes reviewing the play and eventually reverse the call on the court and made it a 2-pointer sending the game into OT.

U1 and U2 signal 3 and lead says 2. The real question is why did Lead have any knowledge as to whether it was a 2 or 3. Lead should be looking in his primary at this time especially at the end of a game.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Usually, if I'm lead, the lead official carries more weight than the trail. Sometimes you can almost see the court tilt.

Not when I'm trail, it won't!

[Indy_Ref]

I, too, have not seen the play, but I suspect the call came from T's primary 3-pt line area...probably down toward the baseline near where L was positioned. L probably glanced at the shot just in case T needed any help. C probably mirrored the made shot...so he really doesn't know if it's a 3 or not...he's just doing his job of mirroring. What I don't understand is that if T was sure, why would he let himself be overruled by L!! If I'm L and I think I need to overrule this, the tape better support me 100%, and that tape better show me looking at the feet at a 90 degree angle to the 3-pt line!!!!! At the D-I level, it is IMPERATIVE that you get these kinds of situations right!!! SO, I better be 100% right if I'm L changing this call!! IF not, my assigner is probably taking away a few of my assignments!!!!!

[SteveM]

"Why the hell is the lead in a three man game looking at the three point line anyway."

Had this very thing happen to me in a GV 3 whistle game last night. I'm lead and A shoots and misses, B rebounds near endline and turns to head down court, both my partners take off. I'm new trail waiting for B when A steals it back. My trail thinking he is now new lead is free-throw line extened in the backcourt when A launches a 3. I signal the 3 because. Was I wrong?

[bgtg19]

SteveM, you were right to signal. The lead typically does not have responsibility for any 3-point shots (and should not mirror her/his partners signals), but the officials manual does give the lead a responsibility to help on 3-point shots in certain fast-break situations (and the description you gave would qualify). Good job.

Part of the confusion here, I think, is over ChristianHog's use of the term "lead." The newspaper story that was exerpted said that the officiating crew chief, who was the closest to the shot, was the official who signaled that the shot should be counted as two points. The exerpted story also said that the shot took place "around the top of the key." The lead official, barring fast-break or unusual situations not described here, would not be the closest to the shot at the top of the key. Thus, I think ChristianHog may have described the crew chief as the "lead" official.

Since the exerpted story does say that two officials signal the shot as a three-point basket, something is amiss. Either the lead mirrored the center or trail (which shouldn't have happened), or the center and trail both signaled a 3-point basket on a transition/fast break scenario in which the lead was helping out with where the shot was coming from, in which case I'm not sure why they would both signal the 3-point shot if the lead said it was 2.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
I am obviously a partial fan and feel that the razorbacks were robbed of the victory by a very poor decision. I have seen the video several times and it looks like his foot is behind the line, although it is very close.

As the referee on the crew, Mr. Eades makes the final decision when the officials disagree. He ruled that it was a 2. When he went to the monitor, the video did not convince him that he was wrong. Therefore, the shot is a 2.

[jritchie]

Not too talk about the same game or anything...but the Louisville/kentucky game, the lead was the one that called the foul on lousivilles player on the 3 pt shot by kentucky...couldn't understand why in the replay, the trail let it slide and the lead had to come out and get the foul????

[twref]

Ultimatly all of this comes down to "Don't fish outside of your pond!" We all know it is paramount to check your ego at the door and get the call right. If I respect the person/people I am am officiating with, and they come in to talk to me about a call, I assume I kicked the call. Unless they are 1000% sure I am wrong they would never stomp on one of my calls. That being said I have found from experience most times I have worked outside of my primary I have gotten the call wrong. This is something that should always be covered in pre-game.

[ChristianHog1965]

I appreciate all your responses especially bgtg19 who pointed out that my use of the term "lead" official was "mis-leading". I do not know how the officials are titled during a game and therefore my set-up was innaccurate.

The bottom line is that my team lost and the fan in me wants to complain about it. Eades had a run-in with Arkansas AD Frank Broyles a couple of years agian in Fayetteville during which Broyles STRONGLY questioned Edaes abilities and judgment. Broyles later made an official apology. Regardless, it was an unfortunate situation for Arkansas and a remarkably favorable one for LSU. That's the way it goes.

BTW, the hogs went on to go 0-7 from the floor and 3-7 or so from the line in the extra frame. They had their chances to win the game but failed to make the plays.

Thanks again for the information.

God Bless!