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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 03:32pm
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I've been reading this forum for a little while, and have definitely learned a lot. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing this; there's always some little additional tidbit to learn. I've told people that if anyone hears me say I know everything there is to know about refereeing basketball, they can take my whistle right then and drive me to the retirement village. Which, from what I understand, I could meet a couple of the people that post on this forum...
 Anyway, the NCAA has just released a new interpretation (at least on the women's side) regarding free throws. The play is as follows: A1 receives the ball for the free throw from the official. B2 then violates, and the offical gives the delayed dead-ball signal. Before the 10 seconds are up, A decides to call a timeout. Now here's the fun part: after the timeout, and the teams are lined back up, if A1 misses the throw, they are awarded another because of the violation of B BEFORE the timeout. In other words, the timeout doesn't "wipe out" the delayed violation. Now, I've only been reffin' for 16 years, but even in that short time, I've never run across that situation. I've looked through the NF books, and don't see where that's addressed. What's the opinion on how would/should this be handled under Fed rules? I know there's some basis for not losing something as a result of a timeout (i.e: running the end-line after a made basket). Even though this has never happened to me before, now that I've brought it up I'm sure this will happen to me three times in the next four HS games, so do I enforce this in HS, and what can I point to in the rules? 
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 04:44pm
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Personally, I rank the free throw violation up there with the three seconds violation. Absent an NFHS case play, I'm pretty sure I won't remember the delayed dead ball when we return from the time out
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 04:54pm
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B.I.T.S. - Thanks, that's kinda the way I was thinking. Besides, no one I know would argue about my lack of short-term memory, anyway.
I wonder what game incident prompted this interp anyway?
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 09:50pm
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I am not sure why the NCAA Women's issued an interpretation regarding this play, but there is a NFHS Casebook Play that has been around for years (I think that the NFHS Casebook Play dates back to the NBCofUS&C, therefore is applicable under NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules) and it states that if B1 commits a free throw violation and the Team A requests and is granted a timeout prior to A1 releasing the free throw, B1's violation is still in effect when A1 has the ball placed at his disposable for the free throw after the timeout is over. The covering official shows the delayed dead ball signal. If A1 misses, he receives a substitute free throw.
MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 09:57pm
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Quote:
__________________
9-11-01 http://www.fallenheroesfund.org/fallenheroes/index.php http://www.carydufour.com/marinemoms...llowribbon.jpg
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 09:59pm
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Mark is correct. The interpretation is not new. I'd imagine the NCAA just pulled it out because someone missed it. The NFHS rule is the same.
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 10:07pm
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NBCofEIEIO days [/B][/QUOTE]
Was Hee Haw on NBC back in the day?  Anyway, thanks for the answers. I hope it's something I never run into, because it will be interesting trying to explain it to the coach, especially because I don't have keys to Mark's attic.
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 11:03pm
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That question was on our exam last year.
Like quite a few of the questions, it's something you're likely (I said likely) not going to see. Have you ever as a ref ruled a free throw violation because the free throw shooter took more than the alloted 10 seconds?
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Wed Jan 19, 2005, 11:55pm
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Quote:
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Thu Jan 20, 2005, 04:22am
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Well then, since there's a case play on it, I guess I'll just have to set aside my feelings about free throw violations and do it right. Now that I think about it, it would probably be worth it just to see the look of complete disbelief on the coach's face.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
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Thu Jan 20, 2005, 09:53am
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My guess is the violation still stands. Wouldn't that be like calling a travel on A1, having A1 be subbed for during a timeout, then giving the ball back to A because the player that violated is no longer in the game?
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Thu Jan 20, 2005, 09:54am
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I should know better than to question you but some of our officials who took the state certification test this year said this was a question on the test and the test answer was no the violation does not carry over. The interpretation they were given was that when you grant the TO you make the ball dead. According to the rules the free throw ends on a dead ball. The TO call ended the free throw so after the TO the free throw is a completely new one the violation can not carry over. I won't argue your expertise or a case book play. I'm just telling you what I was told by some of our veterans taking a state test.
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Thu Jan 20, 2005, 10:51am
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[/B][/QUOTE]You're kiddin', right? If the FT ends with a TO, then how can you administer another one after the TO? You can't because that FT has ended, according to your guys. Iow, A1 is given the ball to shoot a FT- say the first shot of a 1/1. He calls a time-out and he now loses that FT because it ended. Other team has to get the ball now. That's a ludicrous interpretation. It's a complete mis-reading of Rule 4-20-3.
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Thu Jan 20, 2005, 12:23pm
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We had a very good coach in our area use this situation to his advantage several years ago. His team A was down 5 in the waning seconds, scored and was fouled on the shot. On the free throw, B accidently stepped in early while A was focusing on the shot. Team A coach had his players call time. Since he had the arrow, he told the free thrower to air ball the shot, which created a double violation (I don't officiate anymore so I'm not sure this is still the case, but it was then-is it now?)--Possession to A under their own hoop, with a chance to tie. Team A got off a 3-ball attempt at the horn, but missed. None the less, it was a great attempt by a coach to use the rules to his advantage. Which is why I wouldn't recommend passing on the violation.
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