I didn't even realize there was a controversy about this until they were talking about it last night on the Purdue/Michigan State game and I happened to read the closed captioning while I was at a restaurant:

Hoosiers almost lost on officiating error.

On the Purdue/Michigan State game, Brent Musburger said he'd never heard of continuation in a college game. You college guys, you tell me?

No "continuation," but NCAA has the continuous motion rule which is the same as the NFHS rule.

This play seems to be the exact one we've discussed several times (including just in the past week) regarding foul, whistle, horn, shot.

i am thinking they felt bad about the call right before that in the scramble at the other end. Figured to even it up.

Where's the smiley? You're joking, right?

Lah me, I would certainly hope so!

You are joking, aren't you, Chess Ref?

Better go back to reffing chess.

Officials are not allowed to review the monitor to determine if a foul occurred prior to the horn. I hope they were only looking at the shot.

From the Big-Ten website:




Big Ten Statement Regarding Officiating During Indiana-Purdue Men's Basketball Game
The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue contest

Jan. 18, 2005

The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged today an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue men's basketball game on January 15.

At the conclusion of the first overtime and during the process of reviewing the play at the courtside television monitor, the officials incorrectly interpreted playing rules regarding a made basket at or near the expiration of the game clock. While the foul was correctly called before time expired, the Conference office's weekly review process showed that the ball was still in the hand of the Purdue shooter at the expiration of the game clock. According to the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rules and Interpretations (Rule 2-5.2.b, Rule 5-7.2.b, Rule 6-6.2), the Purdue player should have been granted two free throws with no time on the clock and the field goal should not have counted. Indiana won the game in double overtime, 75-73.

When errors of judgment or rules application impact a game, the Conference office believes public acknowledgment of the error is appropriate. The Big Ten considers this matter concluded and will have no further comment.

That makes a lot more sense
 

Thanks Bob. That makes a lot of sense.

I was trying to interpret what ESPN was saying last night and they had it all confused and tied in with continuation etc.,

Bottom line is he had his hands on the ball when time expired so don't count the basket.

Thanks
David

BBR, I happen to catch this as it was happening. The C clearly came in with the foul before the horn...and from what I could tell that portion was never in question. What I originally heard from ESPN (I know that this isn't the best source of information) was that the foul prohibited the shooter from releasing the ball before the horn...I know that that is an incorrect application, but that is what they said as far as why the counted the basket...but the foul portion of the play really never seemed to be an issue...just whether or not to count the hoop..

The way that statement is worded, it sounds like the NCAA uses "lag-time" with regards to timing. I thought they didn't.

So just for the sake of argument wouldn't it be better to count the basket, and put time on the clock, because by rule the clock was to have stopped when the foul was called, meaning there should still be time left in the game?? Or is there an expection somewhere that allows this to happen??

Now I don't officiate using NCAA rules, so I'm just going by what I've picked up on this forum in the past, but it seems like they've used the timer's lag-time in this interpretation.

For those of you who do use NCAA rules, please correct me if I'm wrong.

cmatthews:
Interestingly, the announcers made the foul an issue at the time. When the officials broke away from the monitor, the announcers seemed utterly surprised that there was a foul call. They agreed it was the correct call, but seemed to indicate the foul was called from the monitor. They even went to a replay that showed the L not making a foul call; yet they completely ignored the C coming in very strong with the call.
I'm guessing they figured it out and didn't issue a correction on the air, though, as that would have made them look foolish. :(

Snaqwells, yep I agree...to me the C coming in hard was obvious...however I did notice his arm wasn't necessarily straight up, more of an angle :D LOL ohhhh those college mechanics LOL

Lag time exists in NCAA games when Precision Time is not used. They just don't call it lag time.


Perhaps but neither the NCAA or NFHS operates that way.

The latest NCAA bulletin highlighted the fact that putting .1 or .2 seconds back on the clock is OVERKILL! The defined expectation is that a slight amount of time "lag" is expected and acceptable.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 19th, 2005 at 12:03 PM]

OK, i just downloaded the rule book, and read 6-6-2 and that explains it all.

Thanks for the explanations.

Jur Ref
 

i am smiley face challegned. i seem to be not too bright when it comes to adding the little faces. Also whats does lah mean.

Worked a GJV with a vet ref, also does local JUCO, . Coach, a big,loud man, starts berating him about handchecking. Lo and behold the next 7 fouls are exactly what the coach ordered. My wife happened to be taping this game-thats how I know it was 7 the vet ref called. i counted them 3 times. So we know refs can and are influenced by outside influences. Another example of no travelling in NBA cause the league doesn't want them to. Outside influence causing game to be called a certain way.

Myself i am still at the point of being grateful to get my hand up when I tweet so i can hardly remember who i called the last foul on so no makeups from me. But I see it and believe it happens, at all levels

Re: Jur Ref
 

Then you truly have a lot of learn.

Bktball Ref
 

Agreed, I have alot to learn.I am only a 1st year ref. i believe we are talking about the same issue. The issue being whether refs are influenced by outside stuff. I have seen threads here that talk about calling how the local assignor wants it called. I also think the previous examples I used also support the position that some refs are influenced by outside stuff.
If we are not talking about the same issue my apologies for misunderstanding...

Any ref that thinks they have to put a "make-up" call into a game isn't worth their weight. Did your partner the "vet" make all of the 7 calls in favor of the coach that called them? Sometimes asking for a call will get you that call, it just so happens to get you that call on both ends!

Re: Jur Ref
 

In the NBA they do call traveling but they look at it differently than we do. Sure they will make mistakes with their application of the traveling rule but I think we have all seen a difference in the application since the days of the Patrick Ewing highlights. Plus, the NBA refs have a lot more on the line than we do. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves if a starting salary of over $100k, $300/day per diem and working an average of 15 days a month from October to June would cause us to ignore a garden variety travel. My answer would be YES! It is easy to criticize the officiating in the NBA but has anyone stopped to think how good we would be if we were close to being on the same page across the board like they are? I know an official who started evaluating for the NBA this season and he told me that now he sees that college officials don't do a very good job. I don't totally agree with that comment but there are some guys who are on TV on a regular basis that aren't that good as far as how they blow the whistle. They probably communicate really well and take care of the other business well but they just don't get it done between the lines. I don't know how long you have been officiating but please don't get all your information from around the water cooler.

All SEVEN of them
 

I am truly a newby. I have minimal game management skills when it comes to coaches/partners. I am aware that i lack said skills hence coming here for advice and suggestions which i am attemting to utilize in game sitch. So I have deferred to the more experienced refs. I think he was intimidated by the coach. Small crowd so everything the coach bellowed sounded like God himself had issued a commandment.

I am down with the point of make up calls are a major no-no. My point is not all refs are like the majority of people on this forum. Thats why i like this lil happy place on the planet-people here are interested in doing it the right way and I am interested in learning the right way to ref. But no all refs are.

There are times when a coach can bring something to my attention that I may have missed. Or I may have been watching it anyway and passed on it for various reasons.
However, there is a major difference between that and having "make-up calls." That may happen in YMCA or Middle School games, but you won't see it at all levels.
As for "outside" influences. You're talking about two completely different things.
1. Local or State associations having some say in how the game is called. You're right, they absolutely can and should affect how we call certain things. You're talking about the organizations that set the interpretations.

2. Coaches b!tching and getting calls because of it. Once again, this may happen at lower levels. But not in my games. I'll tell you right now, I don't get worked. I may have a coach trying and I might even ignore him. However, if I'm ignoring him I won't likely hear his timeout requests. A good official doesn't succomb to this "outside influence."

Re: All SEVEN of them
 

If he was a vet, there's no excuse for being intimidated here. Sit the coach down and shut him up. If the coach's comments are preventing you from working the game correctly, then it's time to quiet him down.

Adam

tomegun
 

i am not trying to be a smart aleck but is board this considered the water cooler. i come here cause my perception is that this board seems to want to do it the right way. In my world the quality of ref varies by vast amounts. Another example-last night big conference GV matchup. One of the refs has on a I am going to Las Vegas nugget bracelte that glistened all night. Because of this board i have chosen to not even wear my wedding band on the court. i am a first year ref just trying to learn and do the best I can. But even i can see the obvious and comment on it.

No, this is not the water cooler. I think this is a place that gets you thinking about the right thing to do and effects you on the court whether you realize it or not. Getting bit in the butt makes us learn and we share that so this is a place that helps. I just don't agree with all of the negative comments about the NBA. Some of them are warranted but all of them are not. An example is their demeanor. If jumping around and looking like an idiot was the best way to get in position to make a call they would do it in the NBA. They are calm and steady, constantly making adjustments to see the plays. IMO that is something they do good that all officials should emulate.

You may be a little confused here, Chess. There isn't an assignor/evaluator anywhere that will ever tell an official to use make-up calls. They may advise their officials to leave certain calls alone- 3 seconds etc., but absolutely </b>never</b> to use makeup calls. On the contrary, if an assignor/evaluator thinks that one of their guys might have a tendency to use make-up calls, they'd probably either call him on the carpet for it or simply get rid off his butt. Make-up calls are the sign of a weak official- iow an official without any balls(acknowledging that woman officials sureashell do have balls in this context). Assignors don't want those kind of people working for them, and to be quite honest neither do coaches. Coaches may be able to work/influence/cow/scare certain officials into giving them calls, but these people just aren't gonna last at the D1 level.

Confused
 

Part of my problem has been I tried to cover several issues in one post, and within that post what I did was unclear about this and that.

Jr your comments about 3 sec./assignor not wanting it enforced. i get it
assignor asking refs to utilize make up calls-doesn't happen - I get it

Previous post mentioned State Assoc. & Orgs supplying interpertations-i get it
I know that on this forum the standards are high- which is why I am here. So the majority of Refs on this forum would never issue a "make-up" call. I believe that. So consequently I now have that in my tool box.

having said all that-there are some refs that are not of the same ilk as around here. I mentioned the game I have on tape. I was just pointing out that not all refs out in the real world are as conscientious as the refs on this forum..

Sorry I am confused but working on it.

You may be right, Chess. You also might not be right. Good officials just call what happens out there. That may mean that they might call several fouls in a row that may look like they're going in favor of a coach that just finished pissing and moaning at them, but those calls may also have been the correct calls too. We- you and I- don't really know for sure unless we we were on the floor with the official and had first-hand knowledge. It's almost impossible to decide what exactly is going on in these situations without actually being there. Officials who work at the D1 level are constantly being monitored and evaluated. Any official who might be prone to bending to pressure from a coach just isn't gonna last very long at that level.

PS- don't forget that there isn't a ref in the world that hasn't and won't miss or blow a call. Don't mistake that with making-up calls either. Jmo.

Can I assume that in a HS Federation Game you would count the basket and give one free throw?

in the original incident??
 

if you are talking about the original incident, no you would not award the basket, and you would shoot 2 free throws. Assuming that you didn't think the shot got off in time.