Got in an argument with a ref today in my work league, which goes by High School Rules about the following simple play:

I was inbounding the ball underneath my own basket after the other team turned the ball over. I threw the ball to my teamamte who was on our side, but the ball got past him and went into the opposing teams side of the court. My teammate did not touch the ball until it was on the other side. Is this over and back?

Thanks.

I did argue for a while, but the referee insisted I was wrong, he was right. It was frustrating because I knew I've seen this before. I need to get my hands on a Missouri High School rulebook.

evrclear02,
Welcome to the forum.

If after your throw-in ended and none of your teammates had held or dribbled (controlled) the ball in your front court (<I>like you said</I>), then there was no team control in the front court and, thus, no back court violation.

Did it do any good *arguing* with the ref? ;)
mick

It doesn't matter whether your teammate touched the ball or not. This is NOT a BC violation.

BTW, there's no such thing as a Missouri High School Rule Book. All states play by the NFHS Rule Book. ;)

Although this is an easy call, it is amazing how many officials miss this one. I've worked two games this year where my partner got it wrong. Both times I tactfully explained the rule to him and showed him the case book where this situation was covered.

Is this an incident that would warrant over-ruling your partner? Is this something that should be brought up during the pre-game?

In NFHS rules there is no such thing as over-ruling your partner. All officials are equal. In this situation, if you feel that your partner has made an error, you should approach him quietly and out of earshot of everyone else and explain exactly what you saw. It is then up to him to decide if he should change his call based on the information which you provided him.

You can't OVERRULE your partner.

You go to him, tell him what you saw and let him make the change if he decides to.

Thank you both for correcting me. I agree that "over-rule" was not the proper wording. Let me rephrase the question: Would this be a situation in which you would go and speak to your partner and explain the rule to him, or would you wait until a time-out?

Access to Rule
 

Is there anywhere online I can access this rule in the HS Rule Book or is this something anyone can copy and paste to me? I would love to print this out and show it to him next weekend.

Thanks

Re: Access to Rule
 

The NF's copyright attorneys will be glad to copy and paste a rulebook and send it to you. You can contact them at 1-800-PLAGIARIZE.

Don't have to be a smart guy buddy...just asking for some help.

SECTION 9 BACKCOURT
A player shall not…
ART. 1 . . . Be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.

Furthermore:
ART. 3 . . . A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY: (Section 9) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

Thank you for the response, although I'm still trying to interpret the rule in the context of my scenario.

Don't take it personally. Mark only insults people he likes a lot.

Maybe I should clarify myself...When I say "my own basket" I mean the basket my team is shooting at.

In accordance with Ref Daddy's post, it is apparent that Team control is a requirement leading to an over-and-back violation.

Now look at the definitions of player control and of team control:
<LI> Rule 4-12-1 A player is in control of the ball when he/she is <U>holding or dribbling</U> a live ball in bounds.
<LI> Rule 4-12-2 A team is in control of the ball when a player of the team is in control.
<LI> Rule 4-12-6 Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, <B>throw-in</B>, a jump ball, or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap.

In your case there was no team control during the throw-in nor was there team control by any of your teammates who had not held or dribbled the live ball inbounds until it was retreived in the back court.
It is easy to see there was no team control while the ball was in your front court. Player/Team control originated in your back court.
Thus, there could be no over-and-back violation. The ball never went over. It only went back. ;)
mick

Thanks Mick...very helpful.

Hmmmmm
 

EvrClear02:

Welcome to the forum!

I hope your brief exposure into the NFHS Rulebook has given you a greater appreciation of the challenges officials encounter when memorizing the rules and their quirky nuances and applying them wisely (and instantaneously) in game situations.

Let me caution you... A little knowledge can be dangerous. Just observe the typical fan or the ranting and raving coach :). Often times their percieved injustice is generated from a lack of rules knowledge and application. It is hoped that you now understand the basis for the label of FANatic.

One other thing that the typical fan does not understand: Officials DO NOT CARE WHO WINS.

I hope your visit to the forum has been pleasurable and made you a better fan of (and in) the game.

Best wishes.