Partner calls 5th foul on home team captain...informs coach and player. Player walks toward bench, but coach says "Go tell them I want them to run 25 on defense while I figure out who to put in!" Player turns to walk back out to teammates and give the message, when partner steps in and tells player to stay right there by bench...coach gets irate - "I've got 30 seconds..." yada yada...was able to defuse situation enough to not have to T coach...in locker room, partner is absolutely adamant that the rules says dq'ed player must stand by the bench until replaced and can't be with teammates on the court...I can not find anything in the book about that...anyone remember reading anything about this before???

The player was officially disqualified by rule. Rule 10-5-3 says that "the head coach shall not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the floor for disqualification". What the head coach directed his disqualified player to do was "participate", and if the player was "removed from the floor", then he sureashell shouldn't be going back <b>on</b> the floor. Penalty is a direct "T" on the head coach. Let him do what he wants in the bench area, but not out on the floor.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 13th, 2005 at 02:12 PM]

Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

Has the player been removed from the floor yet? And does him talking to his teammates after being dqed constitute participation are my questions? I know I have seen dqed players in NCCA mens huddle up their teammates prior to leaving the floor and give them the old " hang on and win one for the Gipper" speech before exiting the floor.

Hmmmmmmm,
I don't know JR...that seems like a stretch IMO.
The player hasn't been removed from the floor yet...he just received his 5th foul.
As long as the DQ'd player is not doing anything unsporting, etc...I'd let him stay on the floor untill he is replaced by the substitute. If he wants to talk to the other players while he waits, fine...the coach does have 30 seconds, so why make a big deal out of it?
Having said that, if my partner wants the player to stand by the bench, that's fine with me also. The player was directed to do so by an official...so I could live with that.

4-14-2 says once the coach is notified the DQ'd player is out of the game and may not participate, the 30 seconds have NOTHING to do with it.

Rocky, see POE#5 in last year's book:
-E- "If the <b>four</b> players remaining in the game head towards the bench for instruction, they are to remain on the court"
-F- "Only the head coach is supposed to be standing during this interval"

Nothing in there mentions or allows the disqualified player to stay out on the floor.

I am with you JR. 30 seconds to replace him does not mean 30 more seconds to participate, it is merely a time restraint applied to the coach to replace DQ'd player.

blindzebra...ya think maybe "participate" means actually playing the game? C'mon, talking to teammates means participation now? Well, I guess we gotta T up all the members of the bench for partcipation when they cheer or give encouragement to their teammates on the floor. :(

By rule the kid is BENCH PERSONEL once the coach is notified, would you allow him to send a kid off his bench over to tell the other 4 players something during this 30 second period? ;)

If he's performing coaching duties out on the court, I would certainly call it "participating". Just talking might be a l'il bit of a stretch, but not coaching.

Once the coach has been informed, isn't that player now bench personnel. Would you allow any other player on the bench to come out into the floor to instruct the team. Once the player has been informed and has reached the bench, I don't think he has the right to go back onto the floor.

That said, I don't think I'd make an issue of it.

Once the coach has been informed of the 5th foul, the player becomes "bench personel" and the coach is responsible for his actions. That said, I would have no problem with the DQ'ed player talking to his teammates while the sub is checking in. He had better behave himself though, because if he has something to say to me on the way by the coach gets the seatbelt. That's the risk the coach is taking, I quess.

Blackhawk

Automatic "T". It's not a time-out, and the head coach is the only one allowed to stand. Even the assistant coaches are supposed to remain on the pine, by rule.

OK JR, I can see the point...I guess my take on it was that it wasn't that big a deal - the kid was about two steps away from the rest of the players, was going to turn around and say whatever to them, and partner runs over there and wedges herself into the huddle and makes the player go stand by the bench...seemed kinda overkill to me.

And I know all the stuff about the player now being bench personnel and the T for anything unsporting also going to coach - that's not what I was "confused" about...just didn't understand the partner getting that worked up over that particular issue...

When you tell the coach the player has 5 and is retired..you then start the 30 second clock....then turn to the player and tell him/her that it's his 5th and he needs to leave....then he can go to his players and say whatever he wants, no where does it say he can't 'TALK' to his players...this is in no way participating!!!!! when the buzzer sounds and no sub is there then you can give the coach a T..... BIG STRETCH TO GIVE THE PLAYER A T FOR THIS!!!

No, and good point. :)
But, in this situation the rules allow for a DQ'd player to be bench personnel AND on the court at the same time...at least untill the player is substituted for.

Fair enough...and like I stated before, if my partner didn't feel comfortable having the player on the floor performing these "duties"...I would back him/her.
I just wouldn't make a big deal of it unless the DQ'd player was doing something unsporting.

Um, and how can you ignore Rule 10-4-1(g) then? The rules say that he <b>can't</b> be out on the floor.

<u>RULE 10 Section 4 BENCH PERSONNEL</u>
The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behaviour of substitutes, <b>disqualified team members</b> and all other <b>bench personnel. Bench personnel shall not</b>:
ART1- Commit an unsporting foul . This includes......
(g) team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorer's table.

<u>RULE 4 SECTION 14- DISQUALIFIED PLAYER</u>
ART2: A player is officially disqualified <b>and becomes bench personnel</b> when the coach is notified by an official.

The rules cited above say that the disqualified player should be on the bench as soon as the head coach is notified. Unless you can cite something else that will back up your position, I think that I'll go with the rules.

Um, and how can you ignore Rule 10-4-1(g) then? The rules say that he can't be out on the floor.

RULE 10 Section 4 BENCH PERSONNEL
The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behaviour of substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel shall not:
ART1- Commit an unsporting foul . This includes......
(g) team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorer's table.

RULE 4 SECTION 14- DISQUALIFIED PLAYER
ART2: A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official.

The rules cited above say that the disqualified player should be on the bench as soon as the head coach is notified. Unless you can cite something else that will back up your position, I think that I'll go with the rules


JR,
How long would you give the dqed player to join the other bench personell after you had informed him/her of the dq foul?

Shawn, jmo, but I would expect the disqualified player to start to the bench when the official notified him. It wouldn't bother me if he stopped and touched hands with his teammates, or said a few words to them. I really don't care how slowly or quickly or how long he takes to get to the bench either. But after he gets to the coach, I wouldn't let the coach send him back out on the floor either to perform coaching duties. As I cited above, the rules do not allow that. The player lost the right to participate when he was disqualified. There's no rule stopping the coach from calling the 4 remaining ball players on the floor over to himself at the bench and giving them the same instructions himself- as long as the coach has a sub ready to go at the end of 30 seconds.

If a timeout is called, do you notify the coach immediately that he has 30 seconds to replace the player and then grant timeout, or do you grant timeout and add 30 seconds to the back end?

at the end of 29.9 seconds. now I am nit-picking you :D

The player must be replaced BEFORE you grant the time out.

Ok guys, read the post and picture the situation in your head.

Player gets fifth foul, coach informed then player...player nearly at bench and coach has him turn around to tell the other players (while he makes his mind up)

And your wandering why his partner was upset and stopped him. The player has been dq'ed, is bench personnel and coach is trying to get under rocky & partner's skin.

I don't think it has to be a big deal, but put in the situation I don't think there are that many of us that would something different than the partner did and tell the player to turn around and go back to the bench

at the end of 29.9 seconds. now I am nit-picking you :D [/B][/QUOTE]No, actually that's a very good point. We went over this whole procedure at one of our meetings this year, and I was amazed (and a little worried) at the number of our guys that weren't aware of the proper procedure- i.e. the sub should be at the scorer's table before the 30-second horn goes off. Not that we want "t"s called if the sub is on the way to the table- we still want a little discretion- but the guys should know the proper procedure, no matter what.