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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 09:35am
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Need some input guys and gals.

Doing a JV game in a semi-packed house with 2 good teams. From the start of the game, coach 1 is on my case, basically using the U word. As in, "You gotta call that foul." And, his players were on the same page.

Finally, at about 4 min in 2nd quarter, his player drives into the lane and has the ball stolen. As I am running down the side line going with the fast break, he is up, screaming, waving his arms. So, I called a technical foul on him for unsportsman-like behavior.

The game is over at 6:45 PM and at 7:05 the assigner is on my cell phone. In our discussion, he asked 4 questions.
1. Did he use foul language?
2. Did I warn him?
3. Would I call the same foul in my college games?
4. Did it make the game better?

My answers: no, no, I don’t know, yes (his kids stopped reffing, too).

So, this is what I need help with. When do you give a coach a warning, and when do you just bang him?

The discussion with my assignor focused on when to give coaches warnings. After thinking about it for a few days, I reached this rubric. If the coach is ignorant of a rule (I know, that never happens) we should politely review the appropriate rules with them in the spirit of educating them. They study how to play the game and often have little time to restudy rules and approved interpretations as they change over time. For example, in the same game, I "warned" the opposing coach not to come onto the floor (it was a very narrow gym) a reviewed the consequences if he failed to follow the rule. In distinction, I don’t think we have to remind them how to behave; an adult should know. We don't warn the players, "don't hit the shooter" before we call a foul. Because he was making a public spectacle of himself in his protest, I judged he was behaving poorly and he gave me no choice.

So, fellow officials, do I have it right? Or, are other considerations I have missed.

Thanks in advance.

Roy


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roy G


Doing a JV gamein a semi-packed house with 2 good teams.

The game is over at 6:45 PM and at 7:05 the assigner is on my cell phone. In our discussion, he asked 4 questions.
1. Did he use foul language?
2. Did I warn him?
3. Would I call the same foul in my college games?
4. Did it make the game better?


Roy, that might just be the dumbest question ever asked by an assignor. There's a tremendous difference between college and JV games- i.e. different philosophies and different expectations of the participants. I can relate to the other 3 questions, but that one is just plain stoopid imo. Of course, you keep JV coaches on a much shorter leash than college coaches, and you take a helluva lot less from JV coaches too.

Personally, in a JV game I think that you shoulda warned him the first or second time he tried to work you, and not waited until well into the second quarter. That's also second-guessing on my part too though. I wasn't there. The bottom line is whether the "T" that you did call actually did get that coach and his team back to playing ball and got them to forget about trying to influence you. If it did, it was a good 'un.
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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:14am
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When to warn.

I think SPIRIT OF THE RULES.

When I find the coach's verbals to me or partner becomes a distraction, when his/her chirping is increasing in intensity and given our best efforts not to pay attention they are getting harder to ignore - Warn.

We are challenged with focusing on the game to manage it and enforce rules. A coach that is taking away from that effort and responsibility should be warned.

So - first time I define or say in my mind : 1) this coach is asking for it, or 2) that was an attention gathering remark, or 3) his/her players are mimicking him/her, or 4) coach is getting louder and stronger - then a warning is warranted and deserved.

Warning's do make the ultimate T easier to defend. If you think one might be coming - warn.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roy G
Need some input guys and gals.

Doing a JV game in a semi-packed house with 2 good teams. From the start of the game, coach 1 is on my case, basically using the U word. As in, "You gotta call that foul." And, his players were on the same page.

Finally, at about 4 min in 2nd quarter, his player drives into the lane and has the ball stolen. As I am running down the side line going with the fast break, he is up, screaming, waving his arms. So, I called a technical foul on him for unsportsman-like behavior.

The game is over at 6:45 PM and at 7:05 the assigner is on my cell phone. In our discussion, he asked 4 questions.
1. Did he use foul language?
2. Did I warn him?
3. Would I call the same foul in my college games?
4. Did it make the game better?

My answers: no, no, I don’t know, yes (his kids stopped reffing, too).

So, this is what I need help with. When do you give a coach a warning, and when do you just bang him?

The discussion with my assignor focused on when to give coaches warnings. After thinking about it for a few days, I reached this rubric. If the coach is ignorant of a rule (I know, that never happens) we should politely review the appropriate rules with them in the spirit of educating them. They study how to play the game and often have little time to restudy rules and approved interpretations as they change over time. For example, in the same game, I "warned" the opposing coach not to come onto the floor (it was a very narrow gym) a reviewed the consequences if he failed to follow the rule. In distinction, I don’t think we have to remind them how to behave; an adult should know. We don't warn the players, "don't hit the shooter" before we call a foul. Because he was making a public spectacle of himself in his protest, I judged he was behaving poorly and he gave me no choice.

So, fellow officials, do I have it right? Or, are other considerations I have missed.

Thanks in advance.

Roy



First, out of idle curiosity, to which IAABO Board do you belong and who is your assignor?

Your assignor calls you on your cell phone twenty minutes after the game ends; your cell phone reception should have immediately become none existent. Having said that, your assignor should not have called you within that time frame. When the assignor was called by the coach or athletic director, the assignor should have told him that he would not entertain any complaints about the officiating until the coach or athletic director had taken two asprins and and then called him the next morning.

Since your cell phone lost its reception, you should then have called your assignor the first thing the next morning and told him that your cell phone battery went did and that this was the first time you had to return his call.

As you can see, I am none to happy with your assignor. This was not a flagrant technical foul (meaning an ejection). There was no forfeiture of a game involved; no building clearing brawl with multiple arrests. It was H.S. jr. varsity game for goodness sake. It was a run-of-the-mill technical foul charged to a head coach for unsportsmanlike conduct.

1) A coach does not have to use foul language for his conduct to be unsportsmanlike conduct. While this may or may not be a valid question, I doubt if I would have asked the question.

2) I am not saying that I do not warn coaches, but warnings are over rated. Now I know that not all coaches are college graduates, and I do not care how highly the charged the game is, but coaches are supposed to be "teachers" and we expect our classroom teaches to stay calm and conduct themselves in a rational and professional manner. Why should we expect anything less from a sports coach.

3) Stupid question. While civility and sportsmanship should allways be the same no matter what level the sport, one is still comparing apples to oranges. Of course it has been my experience that college coaches are far more rational and professional than H.S. coaches.

4) That question may or may not be a valid question. Some technical fouls do make the game better. Some TF's do not make the game because they just should not have been called. And TF's do not make the game better but they had to be called. To prove my point: Just before Christmas I had a boys' H.S. jr. varsity game. Home team is getting blown out. Miway through the fourth quarter my partner in the L position has a foul on V1 agains H1 in the act of shooting. V2 blocks H1's shoot after the V1's foul. The block was not BI or GT. As the T I see the block and do nothing except to let my partner know that the ball did not go in the basket. Coach H wants me to call GT on V2. But Assistant Coach H (Varsity Coach H) takes one step on the court and starts screaming at me about the lack of a GT-ding call. If this game had been a one or two point game, instant TF on Asst. Coach H. But Team H is getting waxed. Would the TF made the game better? No, it would just have added insult to injury to the players because they have a varsity coach who is a jerk. I told Coach H that assistants are to be seen (sitting on the bench) and not heard. It got my point across and the varsity coach sat down and kept his mouth shut the remainder of the game.

MTD, Sr.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by nine01c
When I read this post I had the same reaction as Mark. Basically, how dare he (the assignor) react this way? It's sick enough that a JV coach (or AD or whoever) had to be a whiny baby and "tattle tale" on that bad ref. Then the assignor putting the ref on trial (making him defend his actions as well as implying his wrongdoing comparing the situation to a college game). Don't count on being backed up by your assignors. There are some who go a long way back with coaches and AD's and will hang an official out to dry. I have seen it happen.
I agree 100%. Makes me thankful for the assignor I work for who, no matter how awful my gaffe (and I've pulled a couple of lulu's!) will back me to the coach, and then discipline me privately later. And he teaches partners and mentors to do the same. And for a more experienced ref working with a newbie to do the same.

Okay, now I'm going to go finish polishing this apple so I can get back to washing my dishes.
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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 08:08pm
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I, like nine01c had the same reaction as Mark.. Could not believe that assigner would do some crap like that. At our state meeting this year, our state UIL athletic director told the attendees not to take any crap off of a JV or a Jr High coach, or even a Varsity AC. He told us to bear with and work with the Varsity coaches if possible.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 12:32pm
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Thanks for all the input.

First of all, my assignor is terrific. He has been supportive and positive all year as well as in the past years. He got my back. Rereading my orginal post, I misstated some facts; the assignor was called after the game and he notified me the next day, as recommended. I made reference to the assignor only in order to introduce the topics we reviewed.

The purpose of the post was to gain insight into one of the difficulties I have, which is when to discpline the coach.

In summary, I gathered that it is best to warn a coach when his comments get to frequent. Reviewing the game, I realize now that I chose not to warn him, becuase, I just did not like him and did not want to go near him at all. So, to become better, I am going to have to go past my personal feeling and adminsiter the game itself.

again, thanks for the inputs.
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 03:27pm
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A coach has bigger problems to worry about than trying to ref the game or work the officials. If he's on you consistently, you want to address this as soon as it becomes obvious that he's going to be doing it consistently. I like what was posted here recently:

Strike 1: "Coach, I hear you." or "Coach, I understand"

Strike 2: "Coach, that's enough" and show the stop sign.

Strike 3: Whack.

I also subscribe to Chuck's ABS philosophy. This kind of coach behavior usually isn't deserving of an instant T. But over time, the sum of the bad behavior is. Don't let it ride just because he hasn't said or done any one thing that's worthy of a T.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 10, 2005, 09:59am
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If this is a JV game and you assignor called you 20 minutes after the horn, that means someone was calling probably before the game ended. Coach should have taken time to talk to his Team and Assistant for a while, then if he discussed with your assignor, that all happened pretty quick. Seems maybe the AD or V coach was calling before the game ended. ??
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 10, 2005, 10:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roy G
Need some input guys and gals.

Doing a JV game in a semi-packed house with 2 good teams. From the start of the game, coach 1 is on my case, basically using the U word. As in, "You gotta call that foul." And, his players were on the same page.

Finally, at about 4 min in 2nd quarter, his player drives into the lane and has the ball stolen. As I am running down the side line going with the fast break, he is up, screaming, waving his arms. So, I called a technical foul on him for unsportsman-like behavior.

The game is over at 6:45 PM and at 7:05 the assigner is on my cell phone. In our discussion, he asked 4 questions.
1. Did he use foul language?
2. Did I warn him?
3. Would I call the same foul in my college games?
4. Did it make the game better?

My answers: no, no, I don’t know, yes (his kids stopped reffing, too).

So, this is what I need help with. When do you give a coach a warning, and when do you just bang him?

The discussion with my assignor focused on when to give coaches warnings. After thinking about it for a few days, I reached this rubric. If the coach is ignorant of a rule (I know, that never happens) we should politely review the appropriate rules with them in the spirit of educating them. They study how to play the game and often have little time to restudy rules and approved interpretations as they change over time. For example, in the same game, I "warned" the opposing coach not to come onto the floor (it was a very narrow gym) a reviewed the consequences if he failed to follow the rule. In distinction, I don’t think we have to remind them how to behave; an adult should know. We don't warn the players, "don't hit the shooter" before we call a foul. Because he was making a public spectacle of himself in his protest, I judged he was behaving poorly and he gave me no choice.

So, fellow officials, do I have it right? Or, are other considerations I have missed.

Thanks in advance.

Roy


Did you waited until the player made the lay up before calling the T?
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