Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?

Under NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA rules, a player control foul is a personal foul that is a common foul that is committed by a player in control of the ball.

Under NCAA and FIBA rules, a team control foul is a personal foul that is a common foul that is committed by any player of the team in control of the ball. A player control foul is a team control foul.

There is no such animal as a team control foul under NFHS rules.

The penalty for player control foul under NFHS rules is that same as a team control under NCAA and FIBA rules. The player that committed the foul is charged with the foul and the offended team receives the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the foul.

FIBA has had the team control definition in its rules for well over thirty years. Until the late 1970's the NBCUSC (the fore-father of the NFHS and NCAA rules committees) had the team control rule, but then dropped it until the NCAA returned it to the rule book.

MTD, Sr.

Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.

Jullie:

There there is no such animal as an offensive foul in either NFHS or NCAA (or FIBA for that matter). NBA/WNBA has offensive fouls and it is the same as a team control foul in NCAA and FIBA. I know that under NBA/WNBA rules that no free throws are shot if the offensive foul is committed by the player in control of the ball. I am not sure what the penalty is if the foul is by a player not in control of the ball. Maybe Chuck can give us more information about offensive fouls in the NBA/WNBA.

MTD, Sr.

Nits
 

Mark already did that, and as he said there's no such thing as a team control foul under HS rules, nor is there such a thing as an "offensive foul" in HS or NCAA rules. In addition, under ncaa rules PC fouls bring no shots ever, as in nfhs rules.

Mark, I know there's not an officially named category of fouls called "Offensive", but around here at least, we use the word "offensive" as a descriptor of the situation. It's just a word that means, "committed by the team who has control of the ball".

Juulie:

I have a very big problem with officials who use incorrect terminology. We have enough problems with coaches, fans, and announcers (not too mention officials) who call “over-the-back” fouls. I do not allow my student officials use incorrect terminology. When an official uses correct terminology he reduces the chance of a coach misunderstanding what is being said to him when he ask an official to explain his call.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

BIG difference between the "over the back" misconception and using "offensive" instead of "player control". One is people thinking something is a foul when it's not. The other is a concise, easy to understand, and pretty accurate description of the infraction.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE I know, when a PC foul happens, blows the whistle and indicates "offense!" in some way, not "player control" or "team control".

I cannot think of a scenario where a coach would misunderstand me if I told him his player commmitted an "offensive foul".

I know why you feel the way you do, but in this case, I think you're being a little officious.

It's a lot easier to vocalize and sell a PC foul with, "OFFENSE," along with a strong PC signal, just like you would with a block or a push causing a force out.

The term is concise and since the defense CANNOT commit a PC foul, NOBODY could possibly misunderstand what is being called.

I repeat there is no such animal as an "offensive" foul in NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA basketball. If one is going to do his job correctly, one must use the correct terminology. When one uses the correct terminology, he cannot be accused of not knowing what he is discussing. When a professional (and officiating is a profession) uses correct terminology it is very difficult for a coach to turn his words against him.

When a professional does not use correct terminology it makes him look like he doesn't know his subject matter. One can find far too many threads in this forum where officials confuse flagrant technical fouls with flagrant personal fouls as one example or confusing a live ball as the same as whene the game clock is running.

Remember we are the professionals on the court when it comes to the rules and mechancis, not the coaches and we have to project that image all of the time, and our use of correct terminology helps in the aspect of our job.

MTD, Sr.

How can one get accused of not knowing the rule by saying offense during a preliminary signal?

It is MUCH different than using OTB or reaching in, or on the floor, because the rule CAN be misinterpreted by these terms.

Offense on a PC foul at the spot is no different than vocalizing, "Illegal screen," and then reporting the block or push. Saying block or push during an illegal screen, DOES open up the official to questions about the call.;)

I'm with Mark on this one.

There is no such thing as an offensive foul under fed or ncaa rules. This does not change simply because you yell "OFFENSE!!" while pointing down court. I yell "THAT WAY!!", does that mean I just called a "that way" foul?

Now I'm confused with the over the back discussion. I probably sound like an idiot, but is this not a foul? What am I missing here?

Displacing / holding, etc. are fouls.

Jumping higher than the player in front of you and grabbing the ball w/out displacing that player is NOT a foul.

So is there any penalty for these actions?

Only in the minds of coaches, fans, and announcers on TV.

Behind and over IS NOTHING. Going through the player in front, holding down the player in front, or hitting a player's arms who is in front and reaching for the ball vertically are fouls.

Over the back does not exist.

FYI reaching is not a foul either.:D

I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul.

MTD, Sr.

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means.

I don't understand your objection to calling a foul "offensive". As Dan says, it's an adjective, just like saying a foul is "defensive". This is not "making things up" that aren't in the book. It's using English words to describe a situation. Why is that a problem?

I object because it does not accurately describe what is happening. A1 can be fouled in the act of shooting and still not be airborne for one thing.

Besides, look at the NFHS Officials Manual or NCAA's CCA 2- or 3-Person Manuals. If the official follows the prescribed mechanics, one does not have to say "on the floor." In fact saying "on the floor" is frowned upon at every camp I have every attended or been a staffer. I do not have my manuals in front of me but I know for a fact that the CCA manuals specifically state the the phrase "on the floor" is not to be used.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul.

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote]

Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul. When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote] Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"?

Yea, I could. I've never had a problem with "on the floor." I guess when I move to Ohio, I'll have to change my wicked ways, and go with the PC flow.

It does accurately describe what is happening if the penalty will be a throw-in. If the shooter is fouled before she goes airborne, then I don't say "on the floor" because the penalty will be shots, not a throw-in. See? So when I say "on the floor", it does accurately describe what is happening. That may not be what you hear, that's what I mean.

Okay, when I'm doing CCA games, I won't say it. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just saying that your objections aren't entirely based on fact. Not everyone who says, "on the floor" is being fuzzy-headed and flimsy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul. When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote] Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"? Yea, I could. I've never had a problem with "on the floor." I guess when I move to Ohio, I'll have to change my wicked ways, and go with the PC flow.

From my experience you'll want to add more states than just Ohio to that list.

(Personally I have nothing against you saying "on the floor", seems pretty obvious what you mean. But I do like to referee basketball, and shouting "on the floor" would be a way for me to get un-invited from the club. So it's a bit more than PC.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul. When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote] Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"? Yea, I could. I've never had a problem with "on the floor." I guess when I move to Ohio, I'll have to change my wicked ways, and go with the PC flow. From my experience you'll want to add more states than just Ohio to that list. (Personally I have nothing against you saying "on the floor", seems pretty obvious what you mean. But I do like to referee basketball, and shouting "on the floor" would be a way for me to get un-invited from the club. So it's a bit more than PC.)

How about "White, 33, block, red ball!" Does that work?

Btw, let's not kid ourselves about PC. Of course it's PC. Anytime I do something or say something just because that's how I'm told to, and I'm avoiding rocking the boat because I want to move up, that's PC. It's not PC in the red-state-blue-state way, but it's still PC.

This is one of those things that come down to where you live and what is accepted in your area. On the block mechanic you are not suppose to use your fists. Most evaluators where I live do not like the "proper" mechanic and say it looks less strong as using what is essentially the proper mechanic. It just depends on who you work for and what those say. I believe in proper mechanics, but I also believe that some things are minor. Saying "on the floor" to me is very minor. What I can more about are you rewarding a shot during a foul properly. That to me is the bigger problem.

Peace

Don't worry, Ohio has more than its share of yahoo's that yell "on the floor." Just don't say it.

MTD, Sr.

So Mark and Dan, using your logic about the use of the word "offensive" to communicate the foul call, do you say "Illegal use of the hands", or do you say "hack" or "hit" or "on the arm"??? Cause (unless I'm wrong again) the NFHS book calls it "illegal use of the hands" - right? So you can't call it anything else, right??

When reporting I say none of these so it's not an issue for me.

I, for one, could not care less what anybody else calls them.


How about "White, 33, block, red ball!" Does that work?


Sure, unless white's playing blue.

I, for one, could not care less what anybody else calls them.

[/B][/QUOTE]I, for two, agree with that. I could give a sh*t less what you call them, as long as you call them <b>right</b>!

Yea, I've done that before too!

I do the same thing Dan does. I do not say anything at the table to describe the foul. I do not say push or hand check. I just give the signal and tell everyone if we are shooting or not and where the ball will be located. Now I might say more at the spot of the foul, but it is more to let my partner know what is going on and who might be shooting.

Peace

I don't care either, but some people reacted very strongly to the use of the word "offensive" to communicate a foul (which I was assuming meant calling it/saying that at the spot, not at the table)...so by the same logic, at the spot we must call it "Illegal use of the hands" right???

The CCA Women's manual says that it's allowed.