Charging

[Red_Killian]

I think everyone is being too hard on Starman, except for nine01C, who I agree with. The situations as described should be called PC fouls. Yes, you must see the play before passing judgement and yes, most fans & coaches are not watching the defense but as described these should be PC fouls. I totally agree with nine01c that more block than PC fouls are called and I think officials are penalizing good defense. Hopefully at higher level games this call is made correctly more often than at lower levels.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Red_Killian
I think everyone is being too hard on Starman, except for nine01C, who I agree with. The situations as described should be called PC fouls. Yes, you must see the play before passing judgement and yes, most fans & coaches are not watching the defense but as described these should be PC fouls. I totally agree with nine01c that more block than PC fouls are called and I think officials are penalizing good defense. Hopefully at higher level games this call is made correctly more often than at lower levels.

For the record, I don't agree with you either.

[David B]

Originally posted by Red_Killian
I think everyone is being too hard on Starman, except for nine01C, who I agree with. The situations as described should be called PC fouls. Yes, you must see the play before passing judgement and yes, most fans & coaches are not watching the defense but as described these should be PC fouls. I totally agree with nine01c that more block than PC fouls are called and I think officials are penalizing good defense. Hopefully at higher level games this call is made correctly more often than at lower levels.

I think many many officials routinely miss the Player control foul because they don't officiate the defense.

Once the player has a legal guarding position on defense he can still move in guarding the offensive player and it would still be a PC if the offensive player continues into the body (chest)of the defense. Now if the offensive player hits the defense on the legs or gets head and shoulders past its a foul on the defense for moving into the offensive player.

I think many officials who will see the defense move just a little (maybe a half step) and they call BLOCK! And I know I see more misses on the PC than the block as a HS official.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Red_Killian
I think everyone is being too hard on Starman, except for nine01C, who I agree with. The situations as described should be called PC fouls. Yes, you must see the play before passing judgement and yes, most fans & coaches are not watching the defense but as described these should be PC fouls. I totally agree with nine01c that more block than PC fouls are called and I think officials are penalizing good defense. Hopefully at higher level games this call is made correctly more often than at lower levels.

I know I call a lot of PC fouls and all it does is brings me more grief from these clowns. The coaches or fans do not know the rules in the first place. They think the defender cannot blink in order to get a PC foul called by the ball handler or shooter. When the call goes against them the officials blew the call. When it is in their favor they say nothing. This individual is no different.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I know I call a lot of PC fouls and all it does is brings me more grief from these clowns. The coaches or fans do not know the rules in the first place. They think the defender cannot blink in order to get a PC foul called by the ball handler or shooter. When the call goes against them the officials blew the call. When it is in their favor they say nothing. This individual is no different.

Peace

Ditto.

Z

[zebraman]

Originally posted by nine01c
Are you suggesting to not call the PC foul (correctly) to avoid grief from coaches and fans? I suspect not, since you say you call a lot of PC fouls. I don't really care if everyone in the gym and the janitor thinks I missed the call. Knowing I am right and called it correctly is more important (to me) than pleasing people. We are there to protect and uphold the integrity of the game.

I don't think that's what Rut was saying and it isn't what I was saying. The point is that fans don't know the rules and they are biased by their team affiliation. They will see the same exact play on each end, but they'll want a block on their end and a P/C foul on the other end. They don't want the correct call made, they want the call made that favors their team.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by nine01c
Are you suggesting to not call the PC foul (correctly) to avoid grief from coaches and fans?

You really do not know me very well do you? I could give a damn what fans, coaches or players think. But when I call PC fouls (or anyone for that matter), those calls are almost always brought with grief and distain from the coach or fan the call went against. If the call is 50/50, I tend to call the PC foul. But you always hear the "he was moving" line from a coach or fan. You hear the constant complaining about how horrible the call was. Even if the kid is still and slightly leans back, the coach will say "He was leaning back, how could you make that call?" This is all to point out that no matter how much anyone comes here and says something about how the game is called, they are going to swear you as the officials do not know the rule. So who cares what some coach says about how many calls are PC fouls or not? I know I do not.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by nine01c
I think I "know" you well and realize you don't care what fans/coaches/players think and you call the game right. The squirrel picture should probably be of you (I guess that is a compliment).

It does not take big balls to be that way. All it takes is an understanding of what our job is. It is not to make those people happy for the moment. We are always going to have someone hate our calls. Usually this call brings more venom.

Peace

[Red_Killian]

Hey Starman, I think some of my fellow officials would like to string you up by your ****s and hang you from a tree.

Despite some of the comments directed your way that because you are not an official, you cannot possibly know what you are talking about, I think we are mostly in agreement, that in the the situations you descibe, the defensive player has not fouled, there shoud be a PC foul called, or in the case of the offensive player attempting to go around the LGP defensive player and initiating some minor contact, a no-call, no matter how ugly the shot attempt ends up looking.

I think your bigger concern is consistency among officials in making this call. Consistency among officials will always be an issue. See your other thread on advantage/disadvantage.

What standardized training re: these types of calls is given to officials at the high school level? And how is this kind of thing monitored and/or corrected from game to game for individual officials?

I work in your state, there is little/no standardized training for officials. You pass an open book test, bingo, you are a registered high school official. MN tends to leave training to individual associations or summer camps. It's hard to be an independent, the Minnesota State High School League encourages officials to join an association. Our association has a rookie program for new officials and we are are starting to do some observing within the association. Post game reviews w/your partner(s) help all officials improve. The better officials are going to get more games, the poorer officials will get weeded out. Understand it's not an exact science.

[BktBallRef]

Red_Killian, no one here denies that the plays Star posted are PC fouls. What we disagree with is his assumption that every play of this type that he sees is a PC, when the official rules it a block. Just becauses he describes each one as a PC, it doesn't mean that's what's actually happening on the floor.

I addressed several situations where it's a foul on the defender or a no call. In those situations, he may not be seeing what I'm pointing out.

Yes, the plays he posts are PC fouls, but that does mean that he's right about what's actually happening on the floor.