To "T" or not to "T"?

[Nu1]

I was thinking of this before and a recent thread caused me to think of it some more.

It seems, in many circumstances, calling a technical foul is a judgment call. I know the fights, six players on the floor, etc. are not, but for the others... I'm trying to find my groove as to what should be called and what might be better ignored. In general, I have pretty thick skinned, so I'm trying to guard against letting too much go. A few examples;

Did a Frosh boys game with another new guy. Three or four different times, after a foul call, the offending player did the little "I-didn't-do-anything" dance. (Also done in a variation as the "I-had-all-ball" dance. ) I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I'm hoping you can picture it... the arms flapping up and down and the look of disgust on their face. A couple times I stared at the player and his teammates grabbed him. Once, I was administering a throw-in to a previously "offended" player and he started to question the previous play. Prior to handing him the ball I pulled it back to myself and said, "Excuse me?" He said, "Nothing." And we played on. Maybe I should have T'd up someone for this early??? Maybe I should have had a little meeting with the players - The knock it off or else speech...???

A couple coach questions; Same game described above - I call a player control foul on A1 for striking B2 in the shoulder with an elbow after A1 secured a rebound. Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!" No, I didn't whack him. Is this a spot where most would?

Finally, another Frosh boys game working with a veteran partner. After the game, my partner tells me the coach said to him during the game, "You guys trying to get out of here early?" No technical. Now, I'm thinking a technical should have been called here. I don't know if I would have, but I think I should, if I heard this comment.

Any suggestions on where you draw the line?

[stripes]

In a freshman game, I would get the captain and tell him to tell his team that outbursts like that will not be tolerated. The 2nd one will get a T.

In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me. I would probably tell the coach in the third scenario, that he was done talking to us for the rest of the night. Depending on how the game is going, I might just whack him.

[BktBallRef]

Stripes would handle it well.

With kids, unless it's blatant, we give the coach an opportunity to clean it up. If he doesn't, we take care of it the next time.

We usually gives the head coach a warning. I would in both the cases you mention. Next remark would have him sitting.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Nu1
Did a Frosh boys game with another new guy. Three or four different times, after a foul call, the offending player did the little "I-didn't-do-anything" dance. (Also done in a variation as the "I-had-all-ball" dance. ) I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I'm hoping you can picture it... the arms flapping up and down and the look of disgust on their face. A couple times I stared at the player and his teammates grabbed him. Once, I was administering a throw-in to a previously "offended" player and he started to question the previous play. Prior to handing him the ball I pulled it back to myself and said, "Excuse me?" He said, "Nothing." And we played on. Maybe I should have T'd up someone for this early??? Maybe I should have had a little meeting with the players - The knock it off or else speech...???

After the first (perhaps 2nd) time of this little dance, I would have done something to stop it. Next time is a T. As for the player commenting prior to the throw-in, if he's a good player you can say something like, "You're a good player on this team. Your team needs you to focus on playing well." It's always worked for me. I only use the "little meeting" in extremely rare cases: twice in 9 years.

In short, first be preventative. If you see something that you don't like, ask yourself how you'd feel if it's 10 minutes later and they're still doing it. If you become uncomfortable, then you definitely need to deal with it before it's 10 minutes later, and preferably now.

Originally posted by Nu1
A couple coach questions; Same game described above - I call a player control foul on A1 for striking B2 in the shoulder with an elbow after A1 secured a rebound. Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!" No, I didn't whack him. Is this a spot where most would?

Hmm... I might let this go, if the coach has been good all game. In that case, I would still be inclined to let him know his comments are not welcomed. If the coach has previously been a dummy, then I've more apt to T him, because I'd have already tried to prevent him from being a dummy.

Originally posted by Nu1
Finally, another Frosh boys game working with a veteran partner. After the game, my partner tells me the coach said to him during the game, "You guys trying to get out of here early?" No technical. Now, I'm thinking a technical should have been called here. I don't know if I would have, but I think I should, if I heard this comment.

I got nutin', except maybe a "No, sir."

[gordon30307]

I think all of the instantces that you described could be justfiable called "non sporting" and the appropriate punishment handed out. That being said it's only after doing many games and discussing with your peers how they have handled certain situations and sharing your experience with others that eventually you get a feel for what the appropriate response might be. Experience and lots of it is the best teacher.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Jan 1st, 2005 at 04:29 PM]

[Nu1]

Thanks for the input. One thing I'm hearing - from this forum and in-person conversations - is that a warning is a good starting point. I might tend to just shrug things off and two or three incidents might pass that would warrant a warning.

I could at least give the coach, team captains, or individual player a warning as a starting point. Then, I suppose, if something else happens, they're fair game.

As I said, I think I have pretty thick skin. My concern is that I don't want to let players or coaches do or say things that aren't appropriate...or not handle a situation that might lead to my partner having to do something that I should have done.

As stated, I'll keep gathering experience and hopefully become more comfortable with where to draw the line.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by Nu1
I could at least give the coach, team captains, or individual player a warning as a starting point. Then, I suppose, if something else happens, they're fair game.

You can prevent a lot of stuff by confronting a coach or player. I do not mean threaten them. I mean just having a quite word to make a point. Then it is up to the player or coach to take you seriously or pay the consequences. But they can never say you did not warn them.

[Nevadaref]

Just to give you an idea of how different officials handle the same situation differently, I'll give my thoughts.

Originally posted by stripes
In a freshman game, I would get the captain and tell him to tell his team that outbursts like that will not be tolerated. The 2nd one will get a T.

Excellent. Just what I would do. Just a kid that is upset, but isn't way out of line.

Originally posted by stripes
In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

See above. Why treat varsity players more harshly?

Originally posted by stripes
As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me.

NO WARNING! Quick, decisive T, without a second thought. That kind of behavior is totally unacceptable for an adult.

So we only agreed on 1 out of 3, but that's people and life.

[gordon30307]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref
[B]Just to give you an idea of how different officials handle the same situation differently, I'll give my thoughts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

Originally posted by stripes
In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

See above. Why treat varsity players more harshly?

Because Varsity players presumable know better. They should be held to a higher standard.

Originally posted by stripes
As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me.

NO WARNING! Quick, decisive T, without a second thought. That kind of behavior is totally unacceptable for an adult.

Coach saying "That's Terrible" How do you know he's not referring to what his player did? Would you Tee him if he said "That's a bad call Ref?. Now if the Coach said to me You're Terrible then I'd Tee him.

[jdccpa]

As to technical fouls other than the automatic Ts by rule and the obvious F bombs, etc. here are my personal guidelines:

Players - zero tolerance for any disrespect.

Coaches - Don't have "rabbit ears"! Try to tune out the fans and coaches comments as much as possible. Try to avoid the clever one liners. If a coach is causing a problem, hold up your palm to the coach for all to see (especially your partner)and tell him/her, "That's enough coach". (It usually happens when you are reporting a foul so everyone is watching you.) If he persists, either you or your partner should call the T.

That being said, you have to be flexible, every situation has its own unique set of circumstances that should be assessed first: i.e age level, surroundings, game situation, tone of voice, etc.....you have to be be in the moment!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by gordon30307
Coach saying "That's Terrible" How do you know he's not referring to what his player did?

Originally posted by Nu1
Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!"

That's how. RTQ.

Originally posted by gordon30307
Would you Tee him if he said "That's a bad call Ref?."

Yep. Sure would.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

That's how. RTQ.

Yep. Sure would.

You must give out a lot of Tees.

[Nevadaref]

When I first came to Nevada I did. But now that the coaches know that I don't tolerate that stuff, and I have convinced a number of my colleagues to be the same way, the behavior has improved so much at most of my games that I rarely have to give Ts now.
I actually have two so far this season. One on a coach from CA and the other on a player from CO.

I am convinced that if officials would stop warning for everything, quit letting stuff slide, and just penalize the poor behavior, it would stop. Well, maybe not stop, but certainly it would be drastically reduced.

They will continue to do what you allow. What kind of environment would you like to officiate in? You do have some control over that.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
When I first came to Nevada I did. But now that the coaches know that I don't tolerate that stuff, and I have convinced a number of my colleagues to be the same way, the behavior has improved so much at most of my games that I rarely have to give Ts now.
I actually have two so far this season. One on a coach from CA and the other on a player from CO.

I am convinced that if officials would stop warning for everything, quit letting stuff slide, and just penalize the poor behavior, it would stop. Well, maybe not stop, but certainly it would be drastically reduced.

They will continue to do what you allow. What kind of environment would you like to officiate in? You do have some control over that.

We whacked a frosh player this year, although it was late in the game. I am amazed at the attitude of frosh, talking back to referees. Makes me rethink whether I should whack the first instance in the next game I do. I know that would stop it. I know that there are differences among things that players do and say. I rarely whack anyone for asking a question such as "What did I do?" But, I may need to rethink this whole thing. I still am amazed at the attitudes of youngsters nowadays.

[WinterWillie]

Originally posted by Nu1

I'm trying to find my groove as to what should be called and what might be better ignored.

Make sure your calls are real fouls and not of the phantom variety. You will know if you are nailing them if the players hang their heads and look at the floor after your call. Not only will your confidence soar but the players will develop a respect for you and when the time comes to use the 'T', it will be easy.