Putting a bug in their ear

justacoach · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 05:48pm

We play a game this evening (Boy's 14U travel) against a team we have played within the past 2 weeks. Last game the officials were totally misguided on how to deal with our opponent's agressive screening when on offense.
Would it be politic if I 'naively' asked the officials during warmups if they could clarify the rules as to time and distance as it relates to screening?

Is there a better way to apprise the officials of unusual tactics to expect?

Thanks in advance for all replies.

BTW, there is a user with same nick on the other board. Not me!!!

rainmaker · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 05:55pm

It could backfire, if you're not pretty careful. I think the best thing to do is to wait and see how they start off. If you think they're missing something, call a time out, and talk to them about it politely. Don't argue or contradict. Stick to open-ended questions. Be sure and thank them when they're done explaining. If they insist that they saw the play, and it's not illegal, ask for a rules reference, not to show them up, but so that they'll have to stop and think about it. They may not get it the rest of the game, and you're not allowed to howl! But they might learn something for next time.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 06:00pm

You lose credibility with me when you are spending your time before the game to "warn me" of a situation that has not happen yet. I have been doing this awhile and I do not need a coach telling me what I should look out for. If it is there I will call it. Many times coaches that are so adamant to tell the officials something is a form of manipulation. Maybe that works for some people, it does not work for me.

Peace

rainmaker · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 06:21pm

That's what I mean about backfiring!

canuckrefguy · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 06:30pm

If it's during the game, and the officials say they saw the play and it was not illegal, I wouldn't aggrevate the situation by asking for a rules reference - it's bound to be interpreted the wrong way, especially in the middle of a game.

Look up the rule yourself, seek to understand it, and discuss it with someone, maybe one of your referee friends (if you have any

) or someone from the local officials association.

Possibly, and I stress POSSIBLY, you could bring it up with the officials after a game (as long as you have not had any significant clashes with them) - AFTER you have sincerely shaken their hands and thanked them for their efforts. Then, taking special care not to appear confrontational, and NOT bringing up ANY specific play from the game, you could inquire about screening in general.

If you take special care to ensure the tone is friendly and non-threatening, any official worth their salt will accommodate you.

I would not recommend bringing up anything before the game - I find that, generally, nothing good ever comes from it. On either end.

[Edited by canuckrefguy on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 06:32 PM]

ref18 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 07:11pm

Coach, what exactly do you mean by agressive screening?? Because by that term alone it doesn't look like they were doing anything wrong. If you could just clarify how "agressive screening" relates to the rules. That way we may be better able to understand exactly why the officials were or were not calling the illegal screens. Thanks.

Dan_ref · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 09:48pm

Coach, if I'm working your 14u travel game a quick word as I'm standing next to you during the game will go a long way. Something like "Lot of movement on those screens" said in an offhand manner. Who knows, I may give you one!

(Most likely you'll get a quick "OK I'll look coach".)

But if you come to me before your 14U travel game and ask me how I'm going to call screens you can be pretty sure I'll find one against you in the first couple of minutes.

gordon30307 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 03, 2005, 10:34pm

Coach, Don't call time outs to complain about a call. If you come at me agressively I'll tell you to coach your team. If you ask me in a reasonable manner I'll say I'll watch for it. Don't waste your time outs for that. You can ask me the same question as I'm running up and down the court you'll get the same answer I'll watch for it.

As an official it's generally not a good idea to answer questions as to what you do and donot call. A fellow official that I work with in his pregame used to talk about hand checking etc. etc. Now the first time we don't call hand checking What do you think the Coach said. You said you were going to call hand checking.

ctpfive · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 12:06am

That is definitely a good point(Gordon's), the last thing a coach wants to hear is what the officials are going to pay close attention to. I always hated it as a coach to be told at a pregame meeting that the officials were going to watch for this or that.....and then during the game the exact opposite happens. It made my blood boil. We just get done telling our players to not hand check or whatever it might be, and then all of the sudden the other team is doing that exact thing that the officials were going to watch for, and not getting called for it, and our players are looking at us strangely confused....It is bad for communication all around. As a coach you need to teach your players to set proper legal screens, period. That is your job as a coach. It is not your job to tell the official how to call your particular game. You coach your players, let the officials call the game, and let the chips fall where they may.

SMEngmann · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 01:15am

If a coach wants to ask me about specifics like that in the pregame, I'd be inclined to call the other coach over too so he can hear what the other coach thinks we should be calling. If the coach then continues with the other coach there (never happens), I'll watch for it works well.

justacoach · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 02:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
It could backfire, if you're not pretty careful. I think the best thing to do is to wait and see how they start off. If you think they're missing something, call a time out, and talk to them about it politely. Don't argue or contradict. Stick to open-ended questions. Be sure and thank them when they're done explaining. If they insist that they saw the play, and it's not illegal, ask for a rules reference, not to show them up, but so that they'll have to stop and think about it. They may not get it the rest of the game, and you're not allowed to howl! But they might learn something for next time.

My 'naive' ploy worked. In the lull between games I asked the 2-whistle crew a generic question about screening and when the reply included the magic phrase "time and distance" I was greatly relieved. I did not employ the rhetorical question method that most of the responses here assumed. I know better than to try to tell an official how to do their job!
BTW, I have not howled since the last full moon. How's your season been going?

justacoach · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 02:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
You lose credibility with me when you are spending your time before the game to "warn me" of a situation that has not happen yet. I have been doing this awhile and I do not need a coach telling me what I should look out for. If it is there I will call it. Many times coaches that are so adamant to tell the officials something is a form of manipulation. Maybe that works for some people, it does not work for me.

Peace

Please re-read my original post before you jump to faulty conclusions. If you have a suggestion in response to my question

Quote:

Is there a better way to apprise the officials of unusual tactics to expect?

, then by all means, chime in.

[Edited by justacoach on Jan 4th, 2005 at 02:43 AM]

justacoach · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 03:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
Coach, what exactly do you mean by agressive screening?? Because by that term alone it doesn't look like they were doing anything wrong. If you could just clarify how "agressive screening" relates to the rules. That way we may be better able to understand exactly why the officials were or were not calling the illegal screens. Thanks.

Ref18, thanks for your reply. Rest assured I am eminently familiar with the principles of screening as specified in the Rules book, particularly 4.39.1 thru 6. The intent of my pre-game question was to gauge whether the officials working today's game were literally 'on the same page'.
Our previous game with these opponents took place in a holiday tournament under the auspices of a neighboring county's Dept of Rec. and officiated by employees of said Dept. They obviously were not accustomed to the level of competition provided by elite 8th grade teams and all teams involved were subjected to atrocious calls, abominable game management and a full ration of 'overtheback' and other bogus mechanics for 4 straight games. We are accustomed to and have grown to appreciate more competent officiating.
The nature of the agressive screening manifested in our earlier game involved displacement of stationary defenders on blind screens, elbows, knees and shoulders extended on moving screens against moving defenders and the like, which resulted in some serious contact. None of which drew the attention of the 2 pairs of paid eyes who were engrossed in watching the ball.
Credit to tonight's crew, this mayhem was dealt the appropriate attention from the first whistle and we were able to get back to playing basketball instead of football.

justacoach · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 03:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Coach, if I'm working your 14u travel game a quick word as I'm standing next to you during the game will go a long way. Something like "Lot of movement on those screens" said in an offhand manner. Who knows, I may give you one! (Most likely you'll get a quick "OK I'll look coach".)

But if you come to me before your 14U travel game and ask me how I'm going to call screens you can be pretty sure I'll find one against you in the first couple of minutes.

Thanks for the insight. Hope the new year is treating you well.

JRutledge · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 04, 2005, 06:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by justacoach

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
You lose credibility with me when you are spending your time before the game to "warn me" of a situation that has not happen yet. I have been doing this awhile and I do not need a coach telling me what I should look out for. If it is there I will call it. Many times coaches that are so adamant to tell the officials something is a form of manipulation. Maybe that works for some people, it does not work for me.

Peace

Please re-read my original post before you jump to faulty conclusions. If you have a suggestion in response to my question

Quote:

Is there a better way to apprise the officials of unusual tactics to expect?

, then by all means, chime in.

[Edited by justacoach on Jan 4th, 2005 at 02:43 AM]

Justacoach,

I read your original post quite well. I know what you were trying to say. But that does not mean I have to accept it. I stated my opinion. You asked for opinions right? I gave you my opinion. If you did that with me you will lose credibility. I do not need a coach to tell me what to look for. I have been an official for some time now and every time a coach comes and tells me or my partners to look out for something, it is usually erroneous when the game starts. Or we never see what the coach is making a big deal out of. I also work football and coaches all the time try to tell us what the other team is doing and how illegal it is. Usually the coach does not know the rules and tries to get into a debate without understanding what is legal or illegal. You can do what you want, but you will lose credibility with me and many other officials. Actually most of the officials I know will dismiss your claims. Now maybe in your area officials will not make a big deal out of it. I just know what I would think and the many officials I know. Take the information or leave it. Remember you did ask this question.

Peace