It's no wonder kids are confused about the rules, when what they hear from parents and coaches is wrong. Nothing bugs me more than when the coach yells at a kid, "Move your feet!" and that's exactly what I called the foul for! If the kid hadn't moved, she'd have drawn the charge. Instead, she did what her coach told her in practice a thousand times, and moved her feet. Problem was, coach didn't talk in practice about when TO move feet, and when NOT to. Bugs the heck out of me.

Rainmaker,

When coaches tell their players to "move their feet," it's usually a good thing for us officials. They are trying to get their kids to play defense by getting in good position rather than holding or handchecking to stay with their opponent. So it's usually good advice, even if it comes from parents or coaches. :D

As you well know, a defender can draw a charge even if the feet are moving. The only time it would be bad advice is if the coach yells, "move your feet" after the opponent has become an airborne shooter.

Z

How so?

Good question, also, how does one play defense without moving their feet?

I worked a lot of sub varsity games years a go with a guy who would call a defender for a block if they would turn slightly to shield their face from the impending crash of the offensive player. He was about 95% block in the block/charge calls. The tootsies can move as long as defensive position is established.

Rainmaker, worry more about whether legal guarding position was established and where the defender took the contact. If legal guarding position was established and the defender takes the contact in the torso the feet do not have to be set and more times than not this will be a charge.

I agree
 

Tom

I agree with you 100%. Sounds like you gave a text book definition of legal guarding position. Too often many officials are under the misconception that feet have to remain still.

rainmaker clearly knows that the feet can move and it can still be a PC, and I'm sure that she doesn't call it incorrectly. What I think that she is talking about is that, especially at the subvarsity level where more of the officials are inexperienced, this play often gets called like the guy zebra44 worked with.

Therefore, she may well be right that the player is being penalized solely because he moved his feet! We know that this isn't right, but we also must acknowledge that kids are frequently penalized for it.

If she didn't move her feet, she would have leaned in, or reached in, and caused the contact. The coach is yelling to "Move your feet" because you cannot maintain established LGP without moving your feet.

You are right, of course, that she would have leaned or reached if she hadn't moved her feet.

I guess I shouldn't have posted last night. From the response, it's clear I was incoherent. And I hadn't had a drop of anything stronger than water

What I meant was that ...

never mind. I"ve gotta go get some work done.

What if B1 had LGP and takes it in the chest, but steps TOWARD A1 at the point of contact?

or

What if B1 has LGP, does not step, but turns at the last second and takes the contact on their side?

More often than not, when you say,"More often than not," some smart a$$ will point out that's not always the case.:D

Tom -- thank you for this very insightful and illuminating discussion of the block/charge. Too bad it doesn't have anything to do with the original post.

Obviously, you guys didn't understand me. What does it take to get through to you-all? Sheez, what a bunch of...

Hey, you know, Gordon is right, I like this routine! It feels great to say whatever offensive thing pops into my head and let YOU worry about it. After all, I can't offend you, unless you let me, right, Larry S? So it doesn't matter what I say, eh?

Uhmmm....I'm not the sharpest knife in this drawer but Juulie, wtf ARE you trying to tell us?? Make it simple enough for we dummys in the back of the class to understand, OK?

Defender moved late and caused a block?

Block and Block <small>,"More often than not"</small>
mick

Dan, you must be some kinda dummy if you can't get it when mick and bz can. And as long as I'm not being responsible for the damage I cause, I can think of some other names...

...but maybe it's not fair to go all obnoxious and inner male on you, when you've backed down and done the squishy-feelings thing for me a time or two.

It's not the advice to "move your feet" that I've got a problem with. It's the timing. What mick said is exactly right. Player establishes legal guarding position, and stands very still to take the charge, and then when dribbler starts to get around defender, she moves her feet, just like coach told her. But she moved them sideways, and late, and now it's an easy block. And to top it off, what does coach say to defender during the free throws? "I told you to move your feet!" How helpful...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Dan, you must be some kinda dummy if you can't get it when mick and bz can.

Ouch !
mick

I already admitted to being a dummy in my post. So you're merely being redundant. Inner male?

Nah. More like your inner jerk right now.

Wow! I hope that was cathartic, Juulie. ;)

Nope.
Protestant.
mick

Well, technically Anabaptist. But not acting very much so at the moment. Just feeling generally grouchy, and trying to practice acting it out, according to gordon's philosophy. It WAS cathartic when I said it, but I don't think I was cut out to be a jerk. I guess Gordon's gonna have to do that one by himself. No, wait. He and Larry S. can sit on the porch of the old folks' home by themselves, trading insults, and not feeling guilty about all the people in their lives they hurt. After all, it's their own dam' fault, right?

What if the defender obtains LGP and while moving side to side takes contact in the torso?

What if the defender obtains LGP and takes a step BACKWARDS then takes contact in the torso?

I don't mind someone pointing out what I left out. It was pretty much a test to see how long it would take for someone to come to the rescue. I even sent an email to another member yesterday to check it out. I guess I anticipated this play correctly :D

I can't stand it PC (Politically Correct) rears it's ugly head. I bet you're against Christmas Carrols in public schools because it might offend someone. Anything I said or implied pertained to officiating basketball only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your quotation implies to me that you truly are arrogant and small minded and that you know what's best for the world. History is filled with people that have this attitude. Lighten up and have some fun for a change.

Well, uh-uh!
Afterall, you <U>were</U> protesting.
mick

Hoo-ee! Gotcha!!

Got what??????????????????????????????????

I'm not sure why this is important, butI'm not opposed to Christmas carols in the public schools. I'm also not interested in PC. But, I'm perfectly willing for you to win this little brouhaha. You respond to this, and I won't respond back. You can have the last word. I'm sure you're a great ref, but I'm sure glad you're not my next door neighbor.

Methinks the Lady doth protest too much.

Gordon, hush! Her majesty has spoken. You better be careful or you will hear from members of the royal court!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

What I got out of this thread
 

1. It's that time of the month for Juulie
2. Z and tomegun know PC
3. Tony likes to stir the pot
4. Mick is funnier than hell
5. Dan's a dummy, but a funny dummy
6. gordon's an a$$

I'd say the new year is off to great start.

Re: What I got out of this thread
 

:D

Re: What I got out of this thread
 

Y'all oughta put smileys on posts like this, Nevada. You have no idea how many people are gonna take that as being serious (even though you were right on about Dan).

Re: Re: What I got out of this thread
 

Re: Re: Re: What I got out of this thread
 

http://www.neiu.edu/~ncaftori/gif/Baby_Finger.jpg [/B][/QUOTE]Lah me, I just got this from Juulie too.
http://media1.funnyjunk.com/pics/0545.jpg
Must be a lot of that going around today.

I needed this laugh right now. There were just some people at my desk giving me a headache.

I've been studiously ignoring this thread since about the 4th post. But after a flurry of email this morning, I decided that maybe I'd missed something important. Upon further review. . .

I should've taken juulie's advice. Yeesh. :rolleyes:

^^^^^^^^^:D