What are your automatic Ts? Like: slamming a ball (either going above their head or if they don't catch it), a coach or player questioning your integrity, etc.? What are yours?

I'm going to assume you mean automatic unsporting T's

Things that fall under that category are:

-Coach swearing at me
-player swearing at me
-coach running onto court screaming at me
-any intentional physical contact between me and a coach/player will result in a flagerant T
-coach kicks chair across gym
-coach giving the table crew a hard time
-If a coach at any time is yelling at me saying, "Ref, call something" or "Call a foul" I'm more than happy to comply by calling one against him/her :p

There are probably a few more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Slamming the ball is an automatic "t" for me and even reaching across the end line and slapping the ball are the two easiest ways to get wacked!

I know a lot of people feel that way, and maybe I just need to wake up and smell the coffee, but why is slamming the ball an automatic? What's so terrible about it? It's usually directed at oneself, not at the officiating, in my experience. It seems to me to be a lot like the kid who is called for a foul and then goes and slams his hand against the padding on the wall.

I'm just asking. I had one of these this year already. The ball bounced about rim-high and came right down into my hands and neither my partner nor I whistled it.

Without getting into a long dissertation about this, I have seen players slam the ball for many reasons. It is my belief that if you slam the basketball and it goes substantially higher than your head, then that is an unsporting act and I dont tollerate that. Once again, its a judgement call on the officials behalf. Every slammed ball I have seen this season has deserved a "t" and the coachs totally agreed with the call and corrected the players action afterwards.

I think slamming the ball tends to incite the crowd, and maybe the player is upset with himself, but if a player misses a layup, and runs down court and drops a loud F-bomb, even if he was mad at himself, I'm sure you'd take some action.

It's a game distraction I feel needs to be dealt with. Also, If you don't penalize the first one, you better not penalize any other ones.

So what your saying ChuckElias is that slamming the ball is not an act of displeasure with you or your partners call? How do you know? Did you ask the player and thats what he or she told you. Also, I would be very inclined to give a whack to a player or coach that slammed their hand against the padding on the wall or elsewhere if I had just made a call against them or him, because I feel like that is showing disgust with with my call. Sort of like if the coach slams down his clipboard during the game to show his displeasure in your calls. Wouldn't this deserve a whack?

I am not going to speak for Chuck, but I agree with his question. You do not know and that is the problem. I think I need more than just the ball bouncing. A look. A gesture. Something outside of just bouncing the ball on the ground. And if a coach slams down the clipboard, who is to say he is upset with you? Could he not be upset with his player that put himself in a bad situation? I will not speak for anyone else, but I do not see this as automatic unless you know their actions are directed towards you. If it is just frustration with themselves it is not automatic. I might take a couple of seconds to come to that conclusion, but I will not pull the trigger without some other markers.

Peace

This is just me, but I don't care why you're slamming the ball but if you slam the ball I'm T-ing you up every single time. This comes from what I was taught in football, if a player spikes the ball for any reason we're told to flag it. At the beginning of the season you see it a bit, but at the end of the season no one spikes the ball anymore because they know we're going to call it.

I believe the same holds true for basketball, I don't care why you're slamming the ball its a T. Just like if a player kicked the ball accross the court in response to his frustration with himself or his teammates. Just because he isn't reacting to your call are you just going to let it go??? I hope not.

Exactly what I'm saying ref18, you are penalizing the unsporting act, not their intentions.

A.> 10-6-a
B.> 10-6-b
C.> 10-7-a
D.> None of the above
E.> Some of the above
F.> All of the above

:)
mick

The more and more I officiate the less and less I find my self saying I have an "automatic." For one, the most obvious situations are never that easy. I do not see players slamming the ball down, so I cannot say how I would react to it if it took place. I used to say if a coach questions my integrity, but that is not automatic for me anymore. Anytime a coach points out the foul count, is that not questioning your integrity? I do not see other officials give a T for that. They might comment or ask them, "Are you questioning my integrity?" When I have said that to a coach they quickly back down or try to "clarify" their position. Even if a coach curses, it depends on what they are cursing about. I do think if a coach is getting personal you could give them a T, but that is open to interpretation. Calling me a name is getting personal, but so is making a comment about my officiating. I have never had a coach call me a name yet. I have had several question my ability as an official. I do not give Ts if a coach is complaining.

What I have found is if you say what you will do "automatically" you do not leave yourself any wiggle room. I do have things I will address. I do not condone all behavior. I just do not see a one size fits all solution to solving problems.

Peace

Rut,
There's something to that.

After slamming the ball the kid:
<LI> Catches it.
<LI> Walks away from it.
<LI> Retrieves it.

I agree that those actions are not characteristically equal.

mick

My point exactly Mick. It might take a split second, but I would not say just because they slammed the ball I would not wait to see the following take place before I made a decision.

Peace

Yeah - it's an automatic T from me when the coach runs out on the floor, throws his clipboard at me, punches my partner in the face, takes out a hockey stick and tries to bash the scorer over the head, then runs out into the parking lot and crashes his car into the gym, yelling profanities and ethnic remarks the entire time.

I don't know about you other guys, but I just won't tolerate this.

It's also an automatic T if the assistant coach takes off his pants and shows his shortcomings.

Balls bouncing after it bounces off of the rim and my partner called a travel no shot - and the kid punches the ball and screams loudly.... I didnt have time to think.. :whistle in mouth - make t- sign - blow sharp blast on whistle: Ok ...


Coach says something that made me go huh... to the effect of "how can you guys not call this junk, are you blind, or just not blowing the whistle"? Close ball game - balls still out of bounds.. he's standing maybe 2 feet away from me - ball goes out of bound. I turn and look at him and said quietly so only he and I could hear... "Coach at half time we decided we were going to let the players decide this ball game for themselves... What you just could have earned you a T. My partner and I are working as hard as we can out here all I'm asking is that you work with us and choose your comments more wisely so that the players do decide this ball game." he sat down and didnt say a word to us for the rest of the game. His team stayed with-in 2 for the rest of the ball game after they closed the 10 point defict they put em in ... so... A t could have either furthered thier defecit or turned aroun and inspired them to play harder.... The T was EASILY justified... but sometimes - my automatics need to change. I've been labled as trigger happy by some officials in my area... But I try so hard to not give them but usually get backed into a corner where I have to.

ace,
Did you really?
Were you funnin' or factin'?
mick

Chuck, I don't think it qualifies as a slam if the ball goes rim high and plops down into your hands.

To me, it's a slam if I need to move my head to watch the ball go up up up up up and then back down down down down down. I don't have a bag full of behaviors that are 'automatic' but IMO that one is as close as it gets simply because it is so obvious, regardless of the kid's intent.

How do you know? Did you ask the player and thats what he or she told you. :)

I certainly hope Ace was "funnin'" cause I would have some serious issues with the "Let's Make A Deal" nature of this episode.

If I'm an opposing coach and I had any sense that your "conspiring with", "bartering with", "conniving", or otherwise scheming, I would major issues with your behavior.

[Edited by williebfree on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 09:46 PM]

Or maybe he just made a disgusting call and the wall slam was justified?

This used to be an automatic T from me.

Went to a few camps, called this as usual, and got chewed out - I think I've come to realize that slamming the ball can mean a lot of different things, and that a technical isn't always warranted.

(We'll see if that thinking carries over to frat league games next month . . .)

Teed a player this evening for slamming the ball. If they slam the ball and catch it most likely no Tee. If they slam the ball and it goes flying I Tee them. Just my rule of thumb.

I understand that it's a lot of people's rule of thumb. I was just asking why it's a rule of thumb. Dan's the only one who answered. "Because it's obvious". Doesn't really seem good enough for me. A legal jump stop is an "obvious" travel to most of the crowd. That doesn't mean we're gonna call it. I know the crowd and coaches expect a T for the slam. Probably b/c somebody told them it was an automatic T. I'm just trying to figure why it's an automatic.

If everybody says it's an automatic T and I'm just a dolt, then I'll call the T and live with that. I'm just asking.

OK, I'll play along.

Firstly, I don't care what's obvious or not to the fans (I know neither do you, but I did want to clear that up). But it is obvious to the players & coaches. Using your analogy, if I'm no calling travels (or what might seem to be travels) then after a few no-calls everyone settles down and forgets about it and there's no real negative effect on the game. But if I no-call an *obvious* T then I'm on a slippery slope and I might have to no-call the next one in the name of consistency and before you know it the game's gone in the toilet. Think of it as the so-called "quality of life" offenses that the cops crack down on simply because they are seen as the first cracks in the civil structure.

Make sense?

Basically, it's the Barney Fife Doctrine: "Nip it in the bud!"

See Rule 10-3-7-a :

Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts of conduct such as:

a. Disrespectfully addressing or contact an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment.

Now, slamming the ball or hitting the padding pursuant to a whistle can certainly fall under an unsporting gesture that indicates resentment. When this happens to me, the kicker for the T usually requires some verbalization to accompany the act which will determine if it was intended towards the official or self-directed.

OK, you wanna eye-ball me, then watch this, BANG!!


By the way Danref, GREAT RESPONSE with the pic.

Get's me thinkin though, you have too much time on your hands! Punn intended!


[Edited by thumpferee on Jan 4th, 2005 at 02:20 PM]

I will Barney Fife a kid who's giving me the "stinky eye" in a hurry.

It's all about intent, action and perception
 

The analogy drawn to the jump stop is faulty. A play that is legal by rule should not be called a violation no matter the crowd's reaction. But spiking the ball is a sportsmanship issue. Sportsmanship is not as well defined as traveling, and the nature of sportsmanship has much to do with how one person's actions are perceived by others.

While we would never allow the crowd to make a traveling call for us, we cannot automatically dismiss the crowd from the sportsmanship discussion. Playing to the crowd and inciting the crowd are sportsmanship issues. If a player or coach is trying to show us up, whom is he trying to show us up too? We commonly penalize these actions partly because of their impact on the crowd. It's game management.

A person's reaction is most often rooted in their perception of another's action. A1's intentions in spiking the ball are almost irrelevant. It is A1's actions that will impact the game. Similarly, the official's action or inaction in dealing with A1 will impact the game.

I'm not arguing for an automatic T on this. But if A1's actions are likely to damage the game, I think he needs to be whacked no matter what his intent.

A1 needs to find ways to vent his frustration that do not appear unsporting to the other participants, because in sportsmanship, perception is reality.

Just my $0.02 :)

Other coach got the same talk from my partner next trip down. Both coaches were starting to go ape on us for a second.... and the players we're starting to act like there coaches.... you know the circle.

Sounds like the true sh!t creek to me!