Visiting team is getting thumped. It was something like 49-14 at the half. Just before halftime, there's a foul down at the visiting team end -- a trip, which I call. No problems, it just sets up what happened next.

I call the foul as the lead, switch, and the ball eventually heads down to the other end of the court where I'm, again, the lead.

Visiting player drives the lane and attempts to do a jump stop (picks the ball up, jumps off one foot, and lands one foot at a time). Partner (T) calls the travel -- I was RIGHT behind him had he not gotten this one.

I'm now the trail at the other end of the court opposite the tables, when I hear "That's bullsh1t!" in a not-quiet-voice. Even with a decent crowd, this was QUITE loud. I looked up just in time to see that the head coach was the one who screamed this.

OK, let's play the game of what happened next....there's more, but I'm late for an appointment. I'll finish this later with a reply to the thread.

--Rich

I'm pretty sure he got himself whacked, and then cried about getting a cheap technical. What I'm not sure about is whether he earned himself a seat in the parking lot.

AW

Last night I watched as my partner got into heated discussions with both coaches (although one was after a T).

I told him after the game that he shouldn't get rattled like that, no matter what the coach says. Hopefully you calmly game him the T.

I'm curious about the jump stop-traveling call.

Driving to the basket, jumps off one foot, lands with one foot first then the other, has no pivot foot. Did the player pivot? Or, was the traveling called after the jump stop? Or am I invisioning this wrong?

Anyway, a T is definately in order for the coach!

If he jumps off one foot, he must land simultaneously with both feet for a legal jump stop. If he lands with one foot and then the other it was traveling.

Curiously enough, this is also now being called traveling in the NBA. I was flipping channels last night and heard the commentator say that Ronnie Nunn, supervisor of officials would be joioning them. So I hung around and watched. They showed the same play that Rich describes, performed by several players including Lebron James. Each time, the official rolled a travel.

Good for them, and us!

If this is the third or early in fourth quarter Tee him. If there are one or two minutes left in the game especially with a running clock I might be inclined to ignore this just to get the game over with.

Absolutely gotta be a "T". There's no doubt that you got the call right. Now he's not questioning your call- he's questioning your <i>cojones</i>.

What if it's in the first or second quarters? What about overtime? What else don't you call at the end of the game just to "get the game over with" - flagrant fouls, intentional fouls, shooting fouls, timeouts?

You make the same call the same way from beginning to end. That's your job. The coach's intent and behavior would be the same regardless of when he said this, so your reaction and call should be the same regardless of when he said this.

I would ignore it unless I KNEW it was directed at me or my partners.

Ooops ...
 

Well, I'm sure as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story" is that the coach got his T and his seatbelt.

The question would be did the coach get to finish the game? I know Rich isn't going to put up with much of anything from a coach especially after he gets T'd.

And I can hear the coach whining about "what did I do?" "I didn't direct anything to you etc etc.,"

Sorry coach but profanity if not allowed especially when everyone in the gym can hear it.

Someone said they might ignore it?? Don't even mention that - he just questioned your integrity and that is NEVER allowed.

Thanks
David

Whack! If he's going to question a call or whatever using that language, it's going to cost him.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct for language, you gotta T.

I'd do it because he earned it but just suppose if you didn't and you were being observed, what would your observer say?

Re: Ooops ...
 

(1) This is a travel. A jump stop like this requires both feet to land simultaneously. Not only did they land separately, they landed like he was taking two distinct steps.

(2) My partner whacked the head coach. I turned to look at my partner just in time to see it. My partner takes about as much as me in situations like this. Like I said a few weeks ago, I remember one technical in about 10 years -- and this year I've been on the floor for THREE coach technicals, one of which I handed out myself.

The rest of the story is that it took great restraint after this to not show him the parking lot. After the technical, the coach gave my partner the big two handed "BS" wave and my partner told me that he kept control, although he had to make himself stay in control. Next time down the floor I called a foul on the same team for a two handed displacment on the post player receiving a pass. The coach started clapping and yelling "Great defense. Great defense."

I was annoyed, but I then realized the coach was just making a fool of himself and the most professional thing to do was not engage him further unless the coach really stepped over the line in which case he would get the second technical from me, which we had discussed at halftime.

The opposing coaches couldn't understand what this guy's problem was, either. It was 49-14 at the half.

After the technical, the coach sat down and the half ended. We talked at halftime about whether I should remind him of the seatbelt rule, and we decided that we would only address the loss of the box if the coach stood again -- we didn't want to fuel the fire. Of course, I had to sit him down the first time down the floor and this was met with another two handed BS gesture to my back. Again, it was pretty clear who was making a fool of himself -- and I didn't even know about this until after the game ended.

Ignore it? Never crossed my mind. Talk about igniting a bigger fire....

--Rich

I'm only addressing the issue at hand flagrant fouls etc. are entirley different. Please note I specifically said with 1 or 2 minutes remaining and with a running clock "I may or may not here that remark." We're talking about words. You know sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

As an aside I recall a similar situation lopsided score etc. losing coach behaving himself the whole game made a disparaging mark directed toward me and I'm not sure if anyone else heard it. I said "Coach I didn't hear what you said do you mind repeating it?" If he did I would have Teed him he didn't and I had no more problems. He knew I gave him a pass and that he was out of line.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Dec 31st, 2004 at 03:48 PM]

= 2nd direct technical foul on the head coach and disqualification.
You're nicer than I am. :)

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 31st, 2004 at 09:35 PM]

Probably. But before I give a second direct technical foul I want to make sure he really deserved it. This was borderline, so he got a pass. I didn't even look in his direction.

I agree with Gordon on this -- there are times to not T an unsporting remark -- but it should still be addressed. "Coach, if I have to stay here to watch the rest of this, so do you."

I can't let this go unchallenged. Words can hurt. Words can kill. The rules let us judge words as unsportsmanlike for a reason. Words DO matter. I've seen situations where I wished it was sticks and stones instead of words that were being thrown. If you really think words aren't as strong as sticks and stones, sit through a day or two in the office of the principal of an elementary school. I can only hope you haven't raised children.

Stop yourself. We're not talking about kids. I'm an adult I can handle it. Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Words may hurt a person's feelings. But words don't kill. Words may incite someone to kill. But the person is responsible for his/her actions, not the words.

Words kill the spirit, which may not legally the same as killing the body, but it's tantamount to the same thing in the existential realities of life. Personally, I'd rather lose my body than my spirit. I know this is off-topic for this baord, and it seems like a small thing to people who haven't been killed in spirit. But I just can't stand to hear people justify themselves or others in damaging someone with words.

Gordon, you say you're an "adult" and can handle it. Fine. You still need to recognize that there are others who aren't and can't, and when you say "words can never hurt me" you are condoning the kind of damage that makes a person give up hope and lose all faith. That may not be what you meant to say, but there are people out there who hear that. It's better not to say it at all.

Stop yourself. Now you're being silly.

I do not know if words hurt people. I do know that a lot of people react seriously to what people say. If words did not hurt people, then I do not understand why some people get all turned around when someone gives an opinion on this site. Words must mean something. I know I will not just say anything to someone because I can.

Rich,
I don't get it. Why didn't you whack him the second time. He was clearly asking for it. Give him his walking papers. If he wants to be a total jacka** that's his business, but send him the message that he can't do it in your ball game

I do most seriously hope you aren't raising children.

If I run him in a HS varsity game, it had better be for an infraction where the state office looks at the report and says: Yup, that was a no brainer.

What gets a coach a first technical isn't necessarily enough to warrant #2. This is just my opinion, of course. Plus, getting waxed 49-14 at the half buys the coach a little more slack in my world.

He was better after being seated on the bench in the second half. The last 14 minutes of game clock ran out without incident.

--Rich

Good grief !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rich,
From reading your posts on forum I am convinced that you are a quality official and that you care about the game. So I will prevail upon you to reconsider this way of thinking. It seems backward and counterproductive to me.

I believe that the coach should behave better, not worse, after receiving his first technical foul. By stating that it takes more for you to give a coach his second T than his first, you are admitting that you will allow that coach to act even worse after he has been T'd. This can't be good for the game.

Almost everyone agrees that the technical foul should make the game better, and that starts with the coach's behavior.
He should now be seated for the rest of the game, and should be clearly aware that any more of the behavior that earned him his first technical foul will not be tolerated.
Why would we as officials want to send any message other than that to a coach?

You are probably subject to pressure from the local leagues, state office, and how the other officials from where you are do things, but would I certainly hope that all of them would be striving for good sportsmanship in high school athletics. Maybe you could lead the way.

I see your point, but keep in mind that the coach didn't act WORSE after the first technical, he just didn't act like an angel right away. The most egregious act was the one he got whacked for and my partner did the whacking. It was the right thing to do at the time.

Right after this it was halftime. We had a long discussion about how we were going to proceed at halftime. We decided that *I* would be the one who would give him the second one, if it came to that.

I guess I was a little loose with the language in my previous post. Had the coach did the same thing that got him the first technical a second time, he would've been ejected. What I was saying is that there are some technicals that are borderline calls (my partner usually makes those calls :) )-- you certainly don't want to eject over one of those.

I've ejected two coaches (one varsity, one JV) in 17 years. One was a coach who came after me in the locker room at halftime. The second was in the second quarter of a Christian school game and the coach got the first one about a minute into the game and the second one after accusing us of being homers.

I have no problems with technical fouls and using them where appropriate, but the longer I do this the less we get to that point. Part of this, I'm convinced is that I don't work games below HS varsity. Most of the really egregious behavior I see is in the subvarsity game before my own. Many of these situations is because the officials aren't experienced enough to communicate with the coaches properly and situations just escalate.

I love this conversation, though, because I'm always looking for a better way to manage game situations -- avoiding bad situations wherever possible.

--Rich

IMHO the first T should have been automatic. No questions. From Rich's post the coach could have got a second T from me. Waving off an official to their back can be caught on tape and seen from the top row. Depending on the situation I might not have let that pass if you were my partner and this happened to you.
I don't agree with designating who would give the second T. There is a place for this but I was in a situation last week where a coach made a personal attack on one of my partners and my other partner was about to move in for a T. I made eye contact with him so he would stay where he was. The partner that was being attacked NEEDED to be the one to do it. The same thing happened with an even more personal attack from the same coach and he got whacked again. I don't see anything wrong with the same person giving both Ts in this situation. The coach made it personal. I guess there is some recent history there but the coach was clearly wrong. The coach tried to come onto the floor after my partner and I told the guy at the table to give me some time on the clock so the coach had ample time to remove himself before the game was a forfeit. The behavior of the coach and players is playing too big a role in what we do. It is horrible and everytime we give someone a "pass" it makes it harder on the next officials. I'm not pointing fingers because I have given some passes that I shouldn't have. I have also thrown a coach out this year that deserved it. I don't know where Rich lives but one problem is states where a coach plays a part in what games officials get. That is dead wrong. We are already working uphill when a coach has this power. Home court advantage takes on a whole new meaning. To some extent I think we need to take the game back!

Also, I'm with Rainmaker. The wrong words can put someone in the tank rather than keeping them out of the tank. The same way we worry about communication with coaches we need to worry about communication with our crew. That goes for anything that is said to a memeber of our crew (by a player, coach, AD or fan) that could effect them during and after the game.

I understand the point, but the fact is that "in the tank" is not dead. Words do not kill. The have a psychological effect, no question. But it's simply false to say that they kill.

I tend to agree that the second T should be clearly earned. I won't let a coach make it personal or get away with anything but I will try to talk them out of the second. Sometimes all it takes is something along the lines of "Caoch, I don't want to eject you but I will. Now is the time to settle down and get on with the game."

BTW...Words cannot DO anything to anyone. It is only your reaction to them that impacts you. I have had people say some very nasty, hatefilled and cruel things to me...that I will NEVER forget. However, I do not treat those people any differently than I treat anyone else.

To paraphrase Elanor Roosevelt..."Noone can make you feel inferior without your permission."

IMO, they are words...nothing else. How you choose to react to them is your decision. You see, life is all about choices.

Uh oh. You'll soon hear from rainmaker.

On the contrary, what is there to say to someone who doesn't think that words carry weight?

Just do me a favor and wear a yellow headscarf or something so that when I see you coming, I can run the other way. My "life choice" is to interact with people who use words to communicate reality.

And, hey, it's kinda nice to not worry much about whether what I say is gonna hurt you or not. That's your problem, right?

Told ya.

Told ya. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, it felt good in the short run. But for a life-plan, I think I'll give this one a pass. There are a number of people in my life that I really don't want to hurt, regardless of whether it's "their fault" or "my fault". If they don't get hurt in the first place, then our relationship is that much healthier. You can keep the "blame the victim" stuff for your marriage and kids. And when you need someone to pay for your nursing home, you'll always have Bush's great new Social Security plan to fall back on.