Given that:
1. A1 is in flight with the ball
2. B1 has LGP
3. Both teams in the bonus
Whaddya got if player A1, in mid-air, passes the ball to A2, and then, while still airborne, collides with B1?

TIA for all responses and Happy Holidays to all!!

[Edited by justacoach on Dec 23rd, 2004 at 07:28 PM]

This is a common foul on A1. It is not a player control foul because A1 was not in player control (holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds) at the time of the foul. An exception would be if A1 took a shot instead of passing.

This is what officials call a "pass and crash".

I would concur, no PC after airborn pass.

In order to know how to handle the sit. you need to know if B is in the bonus, not A (#3). B1 shoots 1+1 if in bonus (7 to 9 fouls on team A) 2 if double bonus (10 or more). Otherwise B's ball for a throw-in at closest spot to the foul.

Blackhawk

Coach -

So what team were you and how did the officials handle this situation for your game??????

In this situation does B1 have to have LGP before A1 is airborne, or does that not matter with the pass and crash??

B1 absolutely has to have position before A1 is airborne.

[Edited by Snaqwells on Dec 23rd, 2004 at 09:32 PM]

My guy was in the air...
Had to do a little educating after the game. L (2-man)called PC and didn't award merited FT's, both teams in bonus. I tried to reason with him during the game to let them shoot but I just got a stern look.

B1 cannot take away A1's landing spot after he's airborne, whether he has the ball or not. That would be a block whether B1 had previously obtained LGP or not.

Assuming that B1 did not move into airborne A1's landing spot, LGP or not, B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor. If A1 initiates the contact by crashing into B1, any foul is going to be on A1.

In short, I don't see how LGP affects this play either way.

That's good that you'll try to correct the refs in favour of the other team. That shows a good coach. Good job man.

And almost got T'd up for my trouble!!!

It is a TEAM control foul though, correct? Which means no FT's whatever the foul count it.

I think this is NHFS rules, not CIS mens, but if it was a CIS mens game, I don't believe there'd be any free throws shot.

Right, Fed doesn't recognize the Team Control concept like NCAA. If the player who fouls has player control, there are no shots, ever. If the player who fouls does not have the ball, there are shots if the opponent is in the bonus regardless of offense or defense.

You're talking about fed rules here, right??

Right, that's why my post started with "Fed doesn't recognize the Team Control concept like NCAA". Fed is the only rule set I'm familiar with.

Fed's the only rule I'm familliar with and the way your post was worded it was a bit open ended, but I was just making sure I didn't screw up the NCAA mens ruling.

Yeah, I never thought of that....only a couple of provinces up here use the Fed Rules - everyone else, I believe, is using modified NCAA Mens Rules now. Unless Quebec is still using FIBA?

Uh oh, I said the F-word....the door's open for Padgett now.

I think Quebec has moved to CIS mens rules, but don't quote me, I know for sure that Ontario still uses Fed rules. I don't think FIBA is used anywhere in Canada anymore, except for the FIBA carded officials.

Juulie - just because I know you're a stickler for grammar and semantics:

If the foul is a player control foul, then there are no shots awarded. If the foul, by a player who has control of the ball, is flagrant, intentional, or technical, then it is not a PC foul, and shots are awarded.

Huh? :confused:

LGP is most definitely affects the play.

If B1 has obtained LGP before A1 leaves the floor, the foul is on A1.

If he gets to the spot after A1 leaves the floor, then he does not have LGP and it's a block.

Okay, assuming A1 runs over B1 while A1 is airborne.

• If B1 DID have LGP and was already on the spot before A1 went airborne, foul on A1.
• If B1 DID NOT have LGP, but was already on that spot before A1 went airborne, foul on A1.
• If B1 DID have LGP, but moved to the spot after A1 went airborne, foul on B1.
• If B1 DID NOT have LGP, and moved to the spot after A1 went airborne, foul on B1.

I don't see how LGP is particularly relevant to this call. The determining factor really is: Was B1 on that spot before A1 went airborne or not?

Yea, but you only got half of what I was trying to say. The second half of my post talks about the player who fouls, but DOES NOT have the ball. Now, try again.

Mark: I know what you are saying. A player can have control of the ball and commit a flagrant or intentional foul. Thus it is no longer considered a player control foul (even though he does have control of the ball), so there will be shots. So technically, a player CAN have control of the ball and there will be foul shots (although not called a PC foul).

The statement that there are NEVER shots awarded on a PC foul is correct. The statement that there are NEVER shots awarded when a player who controls the ball fouls, is incorrect.

TO some extent, we're talking semantics. But LGP does have an affect on this play. The only situation that you listed would be where B1 is on the spot prior to A1 leaving the floor but was not facing A1. This could be a foul on A1. The other three scenarios are automatically a foul or not a foul, based on whether LGP existed or not.

Bottom line, if B! did not obtain LGP on the spot prior to A1 leaving the floor, it's a PC. THat is true no matter what happened prior to the contact.

New Brunswick is still using FIBA rules. I wish we did not, considering that it is pretty lonely right now. Quebec I believe is still using FIBA as well.

I'll bet that this is a typo?

Blackhawk

Nope, B1 doesn't have to attain a LGP before the shooter leaves his feet. B1 just has to take a spot on the floor- any spot facing any direction. B1 is then legally entitled to that spot if he gets there before A1 leaves his feet. If B1 doesn't move and A1 subsequently jumps into him, then it's a PC foul. LGP is not a factor in this call. That's what BBR's getting at, and he's right.