Recently someone named Kris3333 came here to vent about a girls HS game she didn't think was officiated well. Apparently Kris is an official and saw a badly ref'ed game, I think she said the foul count was like 40 to 6 (is this possible?!).

IMO the responses were, for the most part, hardly our best moments here. It is possible her judgement was clouded by being a parent of one of the players. Of course it IS possible the refs sucked big time, let's face it some of us are not so good at this and even the best have an off night. It IS possible she just wanted to come here & vent. It IS possible we could have discussed the details of the game. It IS possible we could have talked her out of calling the assignor (it's also possible we would have encouraged her to call the assignor). It IS possible our collective response could have been something more thoughtful than "go away you idiot fan".

When you call the officials "cheaters" without any examples of plays or situations that might have taken place in the game, what else do you expect?

I seriously doubt that the foul count was 40-4 and the game went into overtime. Just a guess, but I could be wrong here.

If you want the kind of response that is thoughtful and layered, you have to come here with more than, "The officials just sucked."

I choose not to get into that discussion and I did feel there was a lot of piling on, but I would expect more from an official than that.

Peace

If you cannot understand the difference between what is offensive about the picture you put up versus that squirrel pic, you have SERIOUS problems.

I guess the small writing at the bottom of your picture with the little F**K you comment is also okay?

Is it possible too that every one who posted a reply gave their own personal, honest opinion? And they're all entitled to do that- no matter how much their opinions may differ, or whether anybody else agrees or disagrees with those opinions?

We can't tell people how to respond. We can agree or disagree with their response. Jmo.

Just the way it is.
 

BushRef,

I agree with you. Some people can talk about their politics, when you challenge their politics or talk about your person point of view, you are wrong (like this wonderful war we are in right not :rolleyes:).

Some people can be rude or talk about unprofessional situation and it is OK for them. Another person comes along and does the same thing and they should stop officiating.

I agree there are double standards all over this board. Just like real life I suppose. Just keep pointing them out. I do all the time. Maybe that is why everyone hates me so much. Either way, they cannot stop your opposition to it.

Peace

If by "you people" you mean someone who understands how offensive that picture would be to someone who has a disabled child or has had the pleasure of spending time with special populations, then yes we'd still be upset.

There is an old saying about there being a big difference between being stupid and opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

You've become the poster child...pun intended...for that saying.

I have always found it interesting when white male officials come to this site and complain about someone calling them a name that signifies their racial background. You would think the sky just feel in on them and their life is over. I wish I had a quarter every time I officiated and someone made a comment based on what racial group I belong to. When it happens to them "What is this world coming to. You mean there are people that actually do not like me because I am white? That cannot happen."

But when I have a week like I did last week and coaches of different colors were making comments because the officials were all-Black and I mention that, I am playing the race card. One coach could not understand why he could not get Black officials when he played the mostly white schools. Another coach was in "shock" that he had 3 Black officials on his game. I guess you cannot talk about those things because it makes the masses upset.

I understand how you feel. Your picture might have been in bad taste, but there are a lot of things posted here I feel are in very bad taste. It is the internet after all. And people have the right to show their opinions on things. I just find it interesting when you share those feelings, whether it is the situation that happen to Artest or the situation with a parent and a game their child played in, you seem to cannot say what you think without someone saying you are unprofessional or out of line. I guess these are the times we have come to. Keep your mouth shut unless I agree with what you say or do.

Peace

I didn't participate in the post. When I see one that has "biased participant" written all over it I just stay away. There is rarely any logic in a debate with someone who just saw their team lose and decides to blame the officials.

That being said, I can understand why many officials flamed her. She gave very little details, just went on and on about how bad they were.

I've seen a lot more personal attacks here by regular posters that are either ignored or encouraged so I don't know why this one merits being singled out.

Z

Sorry, Dan. Her accusation that the referees cheated was over the top..beyond venting and beyond what any official would say. She acted like an irrational fan and was accorded the appropriate responses.

This is the first school year that our freshmen is not playing competitive basketball, because he is concetrating on swimming and baseball in high school.

Both our sons have played Toledo Park and Rec. basketball (10U and 12U and baseball (10U, 12U, and 14U). The officiating in these leagues left a lot to be desired and I could easily write a couple of articles about the competency of the officials and umpires; but I also know that with one exception the officiating or umpiring never cost my sons' teams a win and the exception only kept the game from going to extra innings.

As a parent I understood that as much as I want my sons' teams to win, but I knew that I am a sports official first and can honestly say that I never critized the officials and umpires. If I thought that an official or umpire's conduct was unprofessional I made it a point to see the Toledo P&R assignor and explain to him what I thought was unprofessional conduct. My main concern was officials that were lazy and did not care if they were there except to collect the game fee or umpires that thought it was okay to smoke on the diamond between games or before the game. Lack of rules knowledge did not bother me as much as unprofessional conduct, because the reality is that no matter how bad the officiating really is the better team will still win.

Fortunately for me the parents of our sons teammates, with the exception of a few, are believe or not are the type of parents that we would all like to see in the stands. They concetrate on cheering for the team and ingnore the officiating.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry Dan,

The remarks from Kris were, from a fan/parent/player certainly unacceptable, and from an official, indefensible.

You've torn a strip off many a poster on this board since I discovered it a couple years ago, many of them along the lines of the one in question.

I'd also agree that some of the attacks between veteran posters are more worthy of attention than what was posted recently.

Kris' remarks, were, at best, unprofessional. The responses, though heated, were not out of line, IMHO.

I take nothing back. I apologize for nothing.

Canuck and others,

What impressed me was 3 pages of virtually the same post, all attacking kris3333 for venting (I think Camron & Juulie gave her some benefit of the doubt). Someone here used the term piling on. The piling on seemed unnecessary and counter-productive. A good way to learn is to examine the mistakes of others, it might have been more productive to try & separate the ranting fan from the critical official.

I don't think she got that chance.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

What impressed me was 3 pages of virtually the same post, all attacking kris3333 for venting (I think Camron & Juulie gave her some benefit of the doubt). Someone here used the term piling on. The piling on seemed unnecessary and counter-productive. A good way to learn is to examine the mistakes of others, it might have been more productive to try & separate the ranting fan from the critical official. I don't think she got that chance.

Dan,

We're all looking forward to you jumping on other posters who "pile on," take cheap shots, make personal attacks and be sarcastic. You are now the designated poster to keep posts on the subject of basketball and not mean-spirited or overly critical. Good Lord, we all know this board could use that from time to time. :D

Z

Jeez, look who woke up on the touchy-feely side of the bed this morning. . . :D

Uh-huh. . .

The unexamined life is not worth living
 

Good for you, Dan!

I recently noted another poster, who was run out of Dodge, complained that he would like to recommend this board to his colleagues, but feels the need to include some caveats. I have recommended this board to people, encouraged them to post, and then seen their posts met with hostility. If we as a community cannot police ourselves, if occassionally somebody doesn't stand up and call us on our bad behavior, then we may as well close this place down and go over to that other board (and don't forget your asbestos undies).

Even if this is the place where we, metaphorically speaking, come to have a few beers and unwind after a game, shouldn't we exhibit something approaching the same level of civility we demand on the court?

I just thought that it would be silly for officials that are throwing a game to send it to overtime. I know I could find a foul at the end of the game to put someone at the line to win it. That was my only post in that thread. I would hope Kris would come back and let us know how the situation was handled.

After a cool down period did he/she still feel necesary to contact the AD/Assignor/Sports Director?

After a cool down period did he/she realize that their comments were made in haste or were they right on?

Shocked, shocked, I tell you!!

I know. I've been disappointed that she/he hasn't come back and filled us in. But I suppose it's possible that she saw a couple of the harsh ones, and then decided never to come back.

Re: The unexamined life is not worth living
 

This particular guy was a little different. He's trolled onto this board before, and been a problem. Kris was just a new ref who didn't know all the unwritten rules yet, I think. I think we could have educated her a little less harshly.

BTW...what happened to that thread.
I'd like to see this train wreck.

I was the 3rd poster, and only asked a few legit questions to Kris. Didn't get to see any posts after about 5...must have gotten pretty bad for Dan to come to the rescue.

(Or maybe he knows this individual and is sucking up for a date?) :D

Has the original already been deleted. I can't even remember what it said. Does anyone still have the thread.

Re: Re: The unexamined life is not worth living
 

I agree. Perhaps the troll wasn't a great example. But my point is still valid.

My reply
 

Ok, here's the real scoop. I yanked the post. I am sorry for venting here and really just thought it best to delete the post. I felt really bad after the replies that I received. I will think twice about posting here again. But in any event, I am still in awe over the game that I saw. Yes, it was very, very bad. I am a ref, I am a parent, but in all honesty, I can separate those feelings. I can tell you that there were MANY other people in that gym that felt the same way I did. I was professional though and did nothing to berate those refs in front of anyone there. I did email MY assignor and let him know what I saw, but I chose not to contact their assignor because I was afraid of backlash. I had spoken to one of the officials before the game, so he knew I was there and knows who I am. I did however, forward the assignors name, number and email address on to our coach and told her that if she felt the need to say something, she should. I don't know if she did or not.

In the original post, I said that I wouldn't go into details. I am feeling the need to now since no one seems to believe how bad it was. Trust me guys, I am not making this stuff up.

Yes, the fouls were about 40-6. I'm not joking. We had 8 players to start the game, 4 were fouled out by the middle of the 4th quarter, and we had to play the rest of the 4th plus the OT with 4 players (3 bench players and one starter). The fourth player to foul out, fouled out because the official called the foul on the wrong person. She was no where near the play that he called the foul on, in fact, my daughter was (who had no fouls at that point). When he came to report the number, he gave the wrong number. (called #22, my daughter was #21). I asked him to go ask the players who fouled, because he had the wrong number and if he reported it incorrectly, he would be in effect fouling our 5th player out of the game. He refused. So that is how we ended up with 4 players. Our coach also received a technical on this play because she was telling the girl as she came off the court "I know, it was on Rachel not you, but dont' worry about it". Tweet - technical on the coach. She wasn't yelling, just speaking a little loudly because the gym was so loud at that point. Maybe it was just his interpretation, but whatever...

In the 3rd quarter, we were given a warning because one of our players took the ball after a shot and threw it out of bounds for the other team. Fine, that is the rule...we were good with that. A few plays later, same player makes a shot, and as the ball came through the hoop, it accidently hit her in the shoulder as she ran by. The Official gave our coach an indirect technical.

At the end of the game, we were up by 3 with 8 seconds left on the clock. Other team inbounds the ball, and dribbles, dribbles, dribbles...no shot to be made. Buzzer goes off, girl (outside the 3 point arc) just kinda granny shots the ball up and into no-where land. Shot? I don't think so, but the official seemed to think so and somehow as she did this, our player "fouled" her, even though she was completely straight up, because she had been told DO NOT FOUL BEHIND THE THREE POINT ARC. I saw this, she was completely straight up. The girl had to reach to hit her arm if she did, and our player was about 5 inches taller than this girl. So they shoot the three free throws, make every one of them (I have to give her credit for that) and send the game into overtime.

These are just a few examples...the entire game was riddled with situations like this.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the original post. You guys can think what you want, but I still think it was a horrible game. I wish that I had a video tape of it so that the assignor could see what happened that day.

Oh, and you'll love this - one of the officials came up to our coach at the end of the game and apologized.

Kris

Kriss:

I don't believe anyone doubted it was a horrible game.

Bad officiating happens.

What didn't set well with many of us was your accusation that the referrees were deliberately cheating.

Your details today provide no support for that accusation. In fact, the official apologizing leads to the opposite conclusion.

I apologize
 

Allright, you're right...I do apologize for the "cheating" comment. Maybe they weren't cheating, but certainly seemed like they were trying to help that team out at any opportunity.

If you started with 8 players and 4 were fouled out, that's 20, plus your daughters 0 fouls so we're still at 20, plus 2 techs = 22, did the other 3 players combine for 18 fouls? Is it possible that your team actually had less than 40 and the other team had more than 6?

Fouls
 

4 players fouled out - 20 fouls.
Two techs -

The other four players had at least 3 fouls each by the time the OT was over since we had to keep fouling in hopes of them missing free throws and us getting the ball back.

Ok, maybe not quite 40, but the key word in my sentence was "about". Maybe it was only 35-6, but you get my gist.

In all honesty, no, you very obviously can't separate those feelings. If you could, you still wouldn't be posting here, and you still wouldn't be running down those officials. Jmo.

Re: Fouls
 

I realize that 35-6 (if that is the true number) is really out of whack. But maybe your team was fouling more. You did not tell us the kinds of defense that the teams were playing. You did not tell us the type of shots that were taken. All you are saying is that the officials were bad. I am not trying to pile on, but there is much more to a game than the foul count. And when I hear people complain about the foul count, you must factor in some other issues. If the other team was playing a zone, it is not uncommon to not have them foul and their opponent is not trying to take the ball inside. You have a right to feel the way you do, but so do we. I know I was not at this game to watch what took place, but I would never come here and crap on the officials and not give some other information. Just because you say those things happen, does not mean they did.

Have a blessed Christmas and at least from me no hard feelings.

Peace

Kris --

The problem here is that we are accustomed to people coming on this board to vent when they are really just mad that they lost and don't want to do the work it would take to get better.

It sounds to me as though you aren't doing that, but others may feel that is how it sounds. I'd like you to e-mail me, and we can chat a little about how I've handled some of this kind of stuff. I think I can help a little, without exposing the raw nerves of you or others on this board who are chary of venting.

juulie

I give up...
 

You guys asked me to elaborate, so I did. I'm sorry I ever brought up this topic.

Re: I give up...
 

Kris --

Please, please e-mail me. I think you and I could have some good gossip together.

Re: My reply
 

Kris, I didn't post to the other thread, b/c I took it for what it was -- a frustrated parent venting -- and honestly, I thought the post just deserved to be ignored. What you or anybody else writes on the internet really doesn't affect me, so I didn't care if you thought the officials were cheating; b/c I know there's a 99.999999% chance that they weren't.

Anyway, your cyber-life doesn't really affect anybody, but. . .

You (a professed official) yelled from the stands to the officials on the floor about how to do their jobs? That is unacceptable. If you're watching/observing a game, you sit there and let the officials do their jobs, whether they do it well or poorly. If you have issues with their performance, you go to them -- as an official, not a pissed-off parent -- after the game and ask -- not preach to -- them about the situation(s) that concerned you.

This is unacceptable behavior from a fellow official. I'm not going to be melodramatic and say that you should be suspended or censured by your board. But you should go to your daughter's future games with the mentality that you cannot repeat the mistakes of this game. Remember that you are merely a fan at those games -- not an evaluator, not an assignor, not even an official -- and you have no business whatsoever, NONE, addressing the officials from the stands.

I'm off my soapbox. I don't want to offend you, honest. But I think that point is worth making in a very strong manner.

Kris, you saw the play and I didn't, so if you say she was straight up, then I believe you. But I think it's pretty funny that you consider being told "DO NOT FOUL BEHIND THE THREE POINT ARC" as proof that she wouldn't have fouled the shooter. Because we've never seen a kid foul after being told "No fouls", right? :)

OK, just to make one thing clear here - I was not "yelling from the stands". I was at the score table, keeping the book. I politely asked them to make sure they had the correct players number. I am not a disgruntled parent. I also sat and watched the boys game immediately after (in which I do not have a kid playing), and was almost as schocked at some of the calls in that game as ours (even though they had two completely different officials).

So whatever, I was just trying to make the point in my original post, that I was appalled that the officiating could be so bad. I was hoping to get suggestions on how we can be better and make sure a game like this doesn't happen again. Guess no one cares about that, rather just attacking me.

Merry Christmas.

Kris, I'm glad you came back to clarify. As I said before, some of us are not very good at this & even those that are have an off night every now & then. Tough to watch. (As bushref demonstrates some of us are not good at a lot of things but that's a whole 'nuther fruit cake. :rolleyes: )

But if you are at the table doing the book you cannot question a foul when it's reported, and you were way out of line telling the official to go back & get the correct number. The *most* you can do by way of 'questioning' the official is to have the scorekeeper hit the horn & tell the official you didn't get the number he gave. When he repeats the number it's your job to write it in the book with *no* editiorial comment.

Re: Re: My reply
 

Let's give her the benefit of believing her account. That said,have you ever seen a shooting foul called after the final horn sounds before the shot goes up?

Well, I want to encourage you to continue participating in the Forum! Perhaps you will be able to focus on the positive aspects and come away with improved knowledge to make your game better.

Having said that, please take the following as constructive:

You need to understand that your role as the scorekeeper is really a part of the officiating crew. Your impartiality at the table is just as important as the official on the floor. Be supportive and NEVER show signs of disgust regardless of how poorly the game may be going in your opinion.

Every game has its fair share of "perceived" shocking calls or no-calls. The officials on the floor may not always get it right from your vantage point. Many times the fans, parents, and even the coaches simply do not KNOW the rules which leads them to develop negative opinions about the quality of the officiating when in fact the calls made or not made were right on target!

Although you may have been appalled with what you felt was a poorly officiated game, the way you presented your views was abrasive to say the least especially since you claim to be an official. Your obvious lack of experience dilutes your credibility; couple that with your accusations of cheating and planned tattle tailing and you cannot expect to garner any support from fellow officials. You simply are not qualified nor is it your role to do so.

Suggestions on how to make it better for the future:

• Attend games and "act" as an evaluator with the intent to improve your own skills but offer your observations to the crew only after you've asked them if they are interested in hearing what you have to say - official to official
• Become a student of the rules so you can objectively see the game from an informed perspective.
• Continue to gain experience officiating and learn learn learn
• Always try to be supportive or at least constructive in your criticisms
• Invoke the golden rule whenever possible

Happy Holidays!

I'm not so sure of that. As Chuck has mentioned, the scorer is part of the officiating crew. As such, she does have an obligation to get it right. If she sees an obvious error in which player committed the foul, I think requesting the correct number is not out of line if done in the proper manner. I know I've reported the wrong number before.

Which is why I told her to buzz the official & get him to repeat the number.

The most *I'll* accept from the table is "Are you sure?" or of course "No such number in the book."

I will not accept a scorekeeper telling me to go verify the number with my partners or the players.

Re: Re: Re: My reply
 

I agree, and said as much in the underlined section.

No. And I'm not even doubting that it happened in Kris's game. I'm only suggesting that we not conclude "she couldn't have fouled the shooter" based on the premise that "the coach told her not to foul the shooter". We've all seen the coach yell "NO FOUL" only to shake his head in disbelief 3 seconds later after his kid commits a foul.

Late again, but just a few thoughts..
 

Reading what Dan had written about this situation has deeper meaning than simply believing Chris etc. etc.

I think many of us need to step back and look at the overall picture of the situtation and many like it.

I would say that some of us need to possibly re-examine why and what we work. In this situation, it appears that it was crummy officiating, and yes, we all have bad days, but face it, I've worked with some plain crummy officials bad day or not.

What should concern us more is that we more experienced officials are not working more games of lesser value. More often than not from what I've seen over many years is that the new refs or what are perceived as bad refs only work these CYO, AAU, park and rec. type games. Many of these local in town leagues get the bottom of the barrel, hence the poorly officiated games. Why is it that the same veterans are continually called upon to work with the new guys? I personally know many veteran officals that would never go back and do a CYO game, and I have often been asked by one of those sitting in the stands at their childs game, "why are you still working CYO or park and rec games? Don't you know you are a varsity official?"

Just my opinion, but many are to busy nursing their career ladder to bother with these lesser games. Afterall, they really won't get me the better assignments that I want. Doing a 3rd-4th grade CYO game will not get me towards that goal of D-1 you know, so why bother? Let a new guy or one of the crummy refs work those...not to mention that if so and so is working, I'm not working with that loser! Afterall if the loser makes a bad call and I am working with him, it will reflect poorly on me and my game, and could possibly keep me from advancing. Invariably, the comments that are usually heard are those sounding like "the new guys need to work these games to gain experience, etc.". This may be true, but many of us would not even consider working CYO or the local in town rec leagues any longer. The feeling I get is that after we have become established, that it is now beneath us and that somehow it will demean my current status of "varsity/college" official.

So, Chris comes in here and tells a horror story about poor officiating. Nothing new there, but how many of us if we really care about the game and our profession will offer to "lower" ourselves to go down and work with these newer officials and give these young players a chance to play in a more normal game.

My apologies to those seasoned officials that still lend their services to the local town leagues and CYO type organizations, but unfortunately, there are not enough of us doing this.

So, when someone comes in here complaining, we should look at all angles.

Happy Holidays,

goose

It is not about that.
 

Goose,

That is all nice and idealistic, but you cannot tell people what levels they want to work and what they should work. It is not nobler to work lower level games when you have achieved a higher status. I know I work only 3 days out of the week on average so I can balance my work life and my officiating life. I do sometimes work more, but it is not to take on a game I have no desire to work. Some of us have families and other obligations outside of officiating. You cannot tell people you have to work a grammar school game when just doing that game might take you away from another obligation. There is a post on this website where a guy is talking about whether to ref or watch his kid play a game. There is much more to this than "not wanting to work lower grade games." I know I worked my behind off so I did not have to work 5 and 6 days a week as I did when I first started. I am also a relatively younger guy that has been blessed not to have any major knee or leg problems to keep me from running. What about those officials that have been working 20 years and might have had a knee surgery and working 3 or more times a week is a physical struggle?

Goose, I think you need to realize that officiating is a hobby. It is not something that we are obligated to do or obligated to work certain levels. Maybe you can do that, but I know I cannot work anytime I like without making some sacrifices in other aspects of my life. And much of the time it is not worth it to make those sacrifices.

Peace