Newbie ref. Doing BJV game. i got about ten scrimmages and ten real games under the belt. Two knuckleheads banging each other -loose ball they chase it-one knocks it out- the other gives a gentle push in front of bench.. Coach jumps up starts screaming for a flagrant-I pass. my reason for passing is both of the players have been banging all night and the push didn't seem that bad ( at the time ). i get the coach to settle down and then the kid who got pushed starts going off on me. So I T him up ( 1st one ) and everything settles down. The lessom I learned is call it tight and call it early and apparently I cannot give the youngsters any leeway. I am finding that I would prefer to give a long leash but it seems to be causing me problems ...so i will focus on tightening up early on.... Thanks for listening...Mike

Mike, the amount of contact that you can "let go" will vary from game to game. If your players can play through small amounts of contact, then you can no-call that and let them finish their plays. If the players are violating or losing control of the ball due to the contact, then you obviously need to put a whistle on it. You'll begin to develop a feel for the kind of game you have.

However, if players are hammering each other in the post, that probably needs a whistle. We're constantly being told that rough play is a point of emphasis. Well, that game was your chance to work on "rough play" calls. If the defender puts a knee in the offensive player's butt, grab that foul. If the offensive player "seals off" the defender by using a stiff-arm or if he moves the defender's arm in order to receive a pass, call that foul. Those calls help to keep the "knuckleheads" under control.

Finally, dead ball contact -- if intentional -- is a technical foul. Without seeing the play in front of the benches that you described, I can't tell you if you should've had a whistle or not. But if you have two knuckleheads who just want to bang on each other, and one of them shoves the other clearly after the whistle -- that might be a great time to send a message. Now if they just bumped shoulders on their way back to the court, then you were absolutely right to let it go. But if there was an intentional push, I might grab that and send the message that if they don't get under control, they won't play long.

To continue on what Chuck said, a double foul is an option if they are both "looking" for that contact every chance they get.

Also make sure your partner(s) know that we have some problem players. I had a game once where two kids were going at it. We had called fouls on both ends on both players, so my partner knew, but as we were lining up for some free throws I said, "Partner we are WATCHING these two," while I pointed at the two clowns messing up the game.

These two never got close to a foul the rest of the game.

Get it early, get it both ways, and make sure your partner(s) and the players know you are watching.

That double foul call really is a great and balanced message. Use it.

If you are uncertain what or who to "tag" - tag them both.

Its an excellent warning message and IMHO not called enough. Rarely see it

There may be a reason you don't see it much.

I've never understood why the double fould wasn't used more on post play. I use it when warranted and it does a lot to clean up play down there. When I do call the double foul, I try to come out really strong with it early in the game. I usually try to talk to the players the first couple of times down the floor about moving their feet and not pushing (unless there's a really bad push) and then start calling fouls.

By the way, in the first line of my post I'm talking about a double foul, not a double fould. Darn fingers!

I'm in a time warp. I just posted #156 twice.

Disregard that last post. I'm an idiot this afternoon.

There is a edit/delete option you know.;)

Too much effort on a Sunday.

Junker, the reason the double foul is not called very often is that one of the fouls is ususally clearly first. If we call the first foul, we go a long way to cleaning up rough play. Call the defender's knee in the butt and you eliminate the forearm push-off from the offensive player. Call the swim stroke on the offensive post player and you eliminate the reach over the shoulder by the defender.

A double foul is almost never an isolated event. Stuff has led up to it that we've missed or let go. Grab the first foul in the post and you don't need the double foul.

This makes a great theory, and it's probably true in a well played, high level game. The stuff I see isn't nearly that simple. Tonight I had 8th grade girls tournament championship game, travelling teams, pretty good ball for 8th grade (although I still didn't need to know the details of GT or BI!). But these girls just don't have the jizz down, you know? Red's clearly winning this game, and Black plays very tentatively. So in the low post, most of the game we've got lots of legal contact, maybe a little nudge here or there, but mostly it's wall against wall. Then all of a sudden in the 4th quarter Black (who was behind 14-0 at the end of the first quarter) starts catching up. Red's getting nervous and lose their cool. All of a sudden low post is knees, hip shoves, shoulder pushes, back and forth. Black's banging and Red's returning in kind, and vice versa. Who started it? No clue. Double foul cleaned it right up. Great tool for the right situation.

Chuck,
The reason that I am very careful about when to use the double foul in NFHS games is that it requires the use of the AP arrow. I really dislike this. Both teams commit the same act, yet the offense could also lose possession. IMO that is an extra penalty which is unfair.
I had a BV game last season that was very competitive. With only a few minutes remaining and a 2 point difference in the score, my partner called a double foul on two players pushing in the the post while a try was in flight. The ball went in and the arrow favored the scoring team. They scored on the ensuing possession as well and went on to win the game. It was never closer than 5 points the rest of the way. I felt then and still do that this call had a big effect on the outcome.
I prefer the NCAA rule which gives the ball back to the team which was in possession at the time of the foul.

For the most part, I agree with Chuck. If you are calling a double foul very often, you're missing what instigated the rough play. However, once in a great while, a double foul can be your best friend. I had one last year where I had called an off-ball foul on each post player in successive possessions, but they continued to lock horns the next time down the floor. They might not have got the message when I called a double foul, but each coach got it loud and clear and promptly removed those two players from the game. The rest of the night was uneventful.

Z