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-   -   When to whack...counting out loud... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/17099-when-whack-counting-out-loud.html)

devdog69 Sat Dec 18, 2004 02:23pm

Good game last night though ended up being a 30 pointer...But, winning coach by 18 or so, starts counting from 8 to 12 on a backcourt count. He may have been right, I lost the count for a bit, lots going on and I sure wasn't going to give it to him while he's loudly counting. They swat the ball OB and now I've got an inbounds and he counts all the way to six, and his count was pretty accurate :) , then loudly congratulates his defense for getting a six count (which I didn't call), another swat out of bounds and another inbounds, about three seconds into the inbounds play, me not counting, I give him a stop sign and he does. Then on my way by I told him, 'the next time I hear counting on this bench, it's a whack job'. Quiet night afterwards he wins by 30 some. Comments?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 18, 2004 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
Good game last night though ended up being a 30 pointer...But, winning coach by 18 or so, starts counting from 8 to 12 on a backcourt count. He may have been right, I lost the count for a bit, lots going on and I sure wasn't going to give it to him while he's loudly counting. They swat the ball OB and now I've got an inbounds and he counts all the way to six, and his count was pretty accurate :) , then loudly congratulates his defense for getting a six count (which I didn't call), another swat out of bounds and another inbounds, about three seconds into the inbounds play, me not counting, I give him a stop sign and he does. Then on my way by I told him, 'the next time I hear counting on this bench, it's a whack job'. Quiet night afterwards he wins by 30 some. Comments?
First: Never threaten a coach with a technical foul. You may find yourself eating your whistel later on in the game. Give a stop sign or tell him that you have heard enough and then let it go. Now you hold the upper hand while he gets to hang himself.

Second: The only accurate count is your count, not the coach's count. And lets face it, when Team B is down by thirty points and we are in the fourth quarter, how close do we pay attention to counts that could result in a turnover by Team B. I am not advocating ignoring obvious violations but there is a thing called game management.

MTD, Sr.

Ref Daddy Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:38pm


Was this coach counting out loud for his team's sake or for a crummy comment towards your count?

JugglingReferee Sun Dec 19, 2004 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
...he counts all the way to six, and his count was pretty accurate :)...
Give him two gears and an application to Timex.

If his count is being used a method to show you up, ask him to please stop the counting. If he persists: WHACK.

refnrev Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:50pm

I had a young smart mouthed coach use the out loud count to be a pain in the butt last week as well as toget the fans all riled up.(I should have tossed him and asked myself all the way home why I didn't.) It's bad sportsmanship and bad for the game. Ask him/her to cease and desist. If (s)he doesn't, be British and give them a spot of "T."

jdccpa Mon Dec 20, 2004 09:23am

I called two consecutive 5 second violations on a team one time. Their Coach called a time out and after the time out everytime they had the ball OOBs the whole team on the floor counted along with my arm motion. I thought it was good coaching on his part.

At one ref camp they told us to close our eyes and count 10 seconds, I happened to be the one with a watch with a second hand and was asked to keep the time, I got to see the twenty refs in the room count off the 10 seconds. No one had it right. Most came in at 15 seconds, four or five were still counting at twenty seconds.

The instructor suggested that we practice our counting at home standing in front of the microwave oven.

Before you start handing out Ts I would suggest that you are confident that your counting cadence is somewhat accurate,and never, never forget to start and keep the count when required, even if it looks like that point guard is going to make it over mid court in 3 seconds flat.


[Edited by jdccpa on Dec 20th, 2004 at 03:00 PM]

Mark Dexter Mon Dec 20, 2004 09:49am

I have a rather accurate count (from years of doing the clock/shot clock), but am often told that mine is too fast. Evaluators will say that consistency is best, and it's better to have a 12 second long backcourt count than one that is 8 seconds long.

ChuckElias Mon Dec 20, 2004 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jdccpa
The instructor suggested that we practice our counting at home standing in front of the microwave oven.
HEY!! That's my suggestion to new guys! I want royalties from his camp income!!

ChuckElias Mon Dec 20, 2004 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Evaluators will say that consistency is best, and it's better to have a 12 second long backcourt count than one that is 8 seconds long.
Yep, that's what they say. But even better is to keep an eye on the shot clock.

cmathews Mon Dec 20, 2004 02:58pm

you know I forgot where I was
 
One that I have heard to respond to coaches, usually who are 3 second experts is this...you know coach every time I hear you count, or mention 3 seconds I lose count and have to start over again.....hmmmmmmm

Ron Pilo Mon Dec 20, 2004 02:59pm

I will usually tell and coach every time I hear them counting I get all confused and have to start over........they usually get the message.....

DownTownTonyBrown Mon Dec 20, 2004 04:10pm

Count Accuracy
 
I think my count is fairly accurate. I don't think I'm fast and if slow, only slightly. I personally want to reward the defense when they do a good job.

Several years back had a JV coach that always tried to egg me on. I'm counting the back court. I'm moving up the floor on tableside and waving my arm toward the middle of the court. I'm probably 10-15 feet from my favorite coach and at a count of about 6. He is up, with his feet on the court, and starts yelling at my partner (Lead, and a long ways away), "10. 11. Who's counting back court?"

He had already rubbed me the wrong way with some of his baiting comments. I'm now at a count of 8 and right in front of him. As I turn to face him from about 5 feet away, I blow my whistle - long and hard. He starts clapping as though I was going to call the back court violation.

Loudly, I state, "I'm counting. And I have a count of 8." Turning to the table, "Technical foul on the Coach. We're going to shoot two."

He grimaced and sat down. I don't know that he didn't see me but he was always a peckerhead and deserving of a lot more T's than he ever received.

It is fun to officiate at times! :D

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 20, 2004 04:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jdccpa
I called two consecutive 5 second violations on a team one time. Their Coach called a time out and after the time out everytime they had the ball OOBs the whole team on the floor counted along with my arm motion. I thought it was good coaching on his part.

At one ref camp they told us to close our eyes and count 10 seconds, I happened to be the one with a watch with a second hand and was asked to keep the time, I got to see the twenty refs in the room count off the 10 seconds. No one had it right. Most came in at 15 seconds, four or five were still counting at twenty seconds.

The instructor suggested that we practice our counting at home standing in front of the microwave oven.

Before you start handing out Ts I would suggest that you are confident that your counting cadence is somewhat accurate,and never, never forget to start and keep the count when required, even if it looks like that point guard is going to make it over mid court in 3 seconds flat.


[Edited by jdccpa on Dec 20th, 2004 at 03:00 PM]

Back in the days when I coached, I had to drive to Cornwall for a tourney. That is a 7 hour drive. The radio is my car did not work, so eventually I decided to practice my 10 second count. Honest to God, I had it down to between 9.5 and 10.5. Of course now, I'm at about 11-12, which I think is best.

That's just proof that even practicing a count will improve.

ref18 Mon Dec 20, 2004 09:36pm

This is just a question to anyone familliar with NBA mechanics.

Over years I've noticed that they don't do an 8 second back-court count.

Do they do it in their head, or are they supposed to use the shot clocks??



And Mike, how did you survive 7 hours without a radio. I start to loose it after a 10 minute drive with no music :D

ChuckElias Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
This is just a question to anyone familliar with NBA mechanics.

Over years I've noticed that they don't do an 8 second back-court count.

Do they do it in their head, or are they supposed to use the shot clocks??

The 24-second clock is the sole determiner of when an 8-second violation occurs. The official does not have a count.

ref18 Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:53pm

Now for any officials who work college ball, are you expected to call a 10 second violation when the shot clock reaches 20 seconds, or are you expected to go with your own pace of visible counting??

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
Now for any officials who work college ball, are you expected to call a 10 second violation when the shot clock reaches 20 seconds, or are you expected to go with your own pace of visible counting??
If NC2A rules are the same as Fed, a 10-second count may not start until after the shot clock starts.

ref18 Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:04am

But can the shot clock be used as the determining factor, or does it rely on the officials count??

JugglingReferee Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:11am

If the shot clock can be used, the official would have to know that the shot clock started simultaneously with the game clock. Can that be guaranteed? I am not so sure.

I think in the NBA they can use the s.c. because the s.c. by rule starts when the g.c. does.

Of course, I might be completely wrong.

ref18 Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:50am

But the shot clock doesn't have to start with the game clock. The shot clock starts when the team gains control, while the game clock starts when the ball is touched. Also the backcourt count starts when the team gains backcourt control.

Camron Rust Tue Dec 21, 2004 04:36am

Most of the count speed comments are more perception than reality. If I put a number on it, about 90%+ of refs counts are too slow (if timed with a stopwatch) by a large amount. Many will be 15-20 seconds.

If you are told your count is too fast but upon checking it with a watch it is right on or even still to slow, try shortening the arm movement. A very full arm movement will look very fast even if it is right.


rainmaker Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
If you are told your count is too fast but upon checking it with a watch it is right on or even still to slow, try shortening the arm movement. A very full arm movement will look very fast even if it is right.


I was told that my count was too fast, even though it was very close. Now, i don't move my arm at all, just use an emphatic wrist flick, and then hold my hand still for most of each second. This has completely ended any criticism.

jdccpa Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:57am

Hey...what if my partner is giving them 20 sec. to get the ball over mid court and I am only giving them 10 sec. and he/she is giving them 8 or 9 sec. to get the ball in play and I am only giving them 5 sec. I usually do not watch my partners counting during a game. Most coaches are tuned in to our counting and will call a time out when they see they are in jeopardy of losing the ball. So they are watching both refs count.

I have never see it listed anywhere as a pre-game topic but it seems to me that our counting cadences should also be covered in our pre-game.


ChuckElias Tue Dec 21, 2004 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
If NC2A rules are the same as Fed, a 10-second count may not start until after the shot clock starts.
There are no FED rules for the shot clock. . . :confused:

ChuckElias Tue Dec 21, 2004 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
Now for any officials who work college ball, are you expected to call a 10 second violation when the shot clock reaches 20 seconds, or are you expected to go with your own pace of visible counting??
Around here, we're expected to keep a visible count. But I trust the shot clock more than my count.

Richard Ogg Tue Dec 21, 2004 02:51pm

Shot Clock
 
If you have a shot clock, then its best to match that count or have a good story. Nothing like making a 10-second call with the shot clock showing only 8 seconds gone, or crossing the division line when the shot clock show 12+ seconds gone and you don't have a call.

I find a quick glance at the shot clock around "1" (if possible - to see if it started) and again around 8 to check my pace works well for me.

Mark Dexter Tue Dec 21, 2004 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Evaluators will say that consistency is best, and it's better to have a 12 second long backcourt count than one that is 8 seconds long.
Yep, that's what they say. But even better is to keep an eye on the shot clock.

;)

Mark Dexter Tue Dec 21, 2004 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
But the shot clock doesn't have to start with the game clock. The shot clock starts when the team gains control, while the game clock starts when the ball is touched. Also the backcourt count starts when the team gains backcourt control.
Not in NCAA - on an inbounds pass, the shot clock is supposed to start when the ball touches a player or is touched inbounds.

Also, while it's possible to have a slight lag, most shot clocks are tied into the game clock so that when the game clock stops/starts, the shot clock stops/starts.

ref18 Tue Dec 21, 2004 04:44pm

So on an inbounds pass control doesn't need to be established for the shot clock to start???

Camron Rust Tue Dec 21, 2004 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
So on an inbounds pass control doesn't need to be established for the shot clock to start???
Not under NCAA rules. This was changed 3-4 years ago to remove the ever present discrepencies between the shot clock and the backcourt count and the confusion (among coaches/fans/players) over the difference. This is generally the same since most inbounds passes are immediately controlled.


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