18 years and just when you think you have seen it all....here's the play and something for you to think about. Team A scores with 4.5 seconds left to go up by two. Team B player throws the ball in to a teammate who sees another teamate streaking down the court towards their basket. She fires a pass that hits a defender in the head, richochets up in the air and..............you got it! Goes in the basket. Horn sounds and now you make the call. Assume the defender was outside the three point arc. Game over?

No books in front of me but I would assume...

Score the bucket as a three, reccommend ice and advil to defender and go home....

You have a live ball passing through the goal for 2 points. The bounce off the head is not a try, so it can't be a 3.

I can't say it any better than blindzebra. Sounds like we've got bonus basketball! :)

So the bounce ends the initial try. That is why I made my statement about not having my book open. At first I was sure it is the way you say, then I wasn't ... blah blah blah.

Thanks for setting me straight

Just to clarify, NCAA - when does the horn sound? Before or after the ball passes through the net? (And, if after, if this is an NCAA game, why didn't the clock stop?)

help?
 

Question...

NFHS--isn't this a three? Original pass downcourt was from behind the arc?

College guys...why isn't this a three in NCAA..just curious.

NFHS Rules:

As I understand Rule 4-40-4 (and case play 4.40.4 Situation B), this could be counted as 2 or 3, depending on the "type" of the touch by the defender.

If the referee feels that the shot ended when the ball hit the defender (like a shot that is on it's way down), then the ball that subsequently went through the basket would count as 2.

If the referee feels that the shot did not end (for instance, the defender was real close to the passer and the richochet merely redirected a ball that was still on it's way up), it would count as a 3.

The FED used to require officials to judge whether or not the original attempt was a pass or a try but they took that out a couple years ago (or so). However, it still looks to me as if we have to judge whether or not the try "ended" or was merely deflected.

Anyone else interpret this the same (or different)?

Z

I don't think this was a shot before it hit the defender. It sounds as though it really was just a pass, that got deflected by the defender's head. 2 points.

In NCAA, a three-point basket can only be scored on a try. This is not a try, therefore, only 2 points can be scored.

Still waiting on before/after the horn.

I'd also like to point out that, for NCAA/NFHS shot clock states, this is not a try, and the shot clock would not be reset if the ball hit the rim but did not go in the basket.

But in NFHS rules a three can be scored from the result of a pass. And it is still considered a three point attempt if it hits a defender who is standing inside or outside of the 2 point zone. Therefore I've gotta say count the bucket as a 3.

Originally posted by rainmaker

I don't think this was a shot before it hit the defender. It sounds as though it really was just a pass, that got deflected by the defender's head. 2 points.

<b>
That's irrelevant rainmaker:

Read Rule 5-2-1 which is clear that even a "thrown ball" (not necessarily a try) counts as 3-points if taken from behind the 3-point line.

That's why I was saying that what <i> is </i> relevant is whether the official feels that the shot ended when it hits the defensive player or whether the ball just got "deflected" by the defensive player.

</B>

Z

A try ends when is certain the throw will be unsuccessful--as per R4-40-4. Case book play 4.40.4SitB is fairly close to this play, only in that play it hit a shoulder instead of a head. The ruling in that play is that the 3-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring- so you can only score 2 points. Just transfer those rulings to this sitch. Unless the defender's head was more than 10 feet in the air when the ball hit it, it's gotta be the end of the original try when it hit the defender's head- and the ball subsequently going into the basket can only count 2 points.

Jurassic,

You are correct, but there could be a situation when the ball hits the defenders head when it isn't "10 feet in the air" and count as 3. One of those long desperation "launches" that starts at the hip and then hits the defender who is right in front of the shooter. Yeah, I know..... unlikely as heck, but if you ref long enough....

Z

Yup, I can certainly agree with that,Z, <b>if</b> it hit the defender while the ball was still on the way up. If the ball's on the way down and below 10 feet though, I think that you gotta say that the try ended.

I don't have my books with me but ....
 

I seem to recall from the case book a play where Team A was passing the ball around outside the 3 point arc and the ball was deflected by a team member into the basket. It was counted as a three. In this case it did not matter that it was not a try for goal. You count it as a 3. Again, I'm going from memory here. I know this situation is involving a defender, I just wanted to bring up the fact that a try, at least in this case, is not germain to the discussion.

I'm not sure about it touching a defender though. I believe the case play had multiple situations and one of them was touching a defender.

Re: I don't have my books with me but ....
 

I don't seem to recall that play. Please find it and cite it.

A pass beyond the arc that goes into the basket without deflecting or touching is a 3. A pass that originates beyond the arc and touches a teammate who is also beyond the arc and deflects, tips or redirects the ball into the into the basket would also be a 3. If teammate is inside the arc, only 2 may be counted.

A pass/try that deflects off of a defender that originates beyond the arc can only be counted as a 3 if the ball was touched on the way up. The defender location does not matter at that point. If you think about it, the laws of physics will let you envision the play (not something out of a Flubber movie). As so elequently stated earlier, once a pass or try is below the rim and deflects off a defender into the basket, only 2 points may be scored.

Re: Re: I don't have my books with me but ....
 

We are in agreement. The case play I'm thinking of is just as you described. The pass was beyond the arc and the player who deflected it is also beyond the arc. The point I was making is that in this case, it does not have to be an actually try for goal to be counted as a 3. It can be a pass. I'll look for the case play tonight. I belive its in the 5.6.x range.

Great discussion! Regarding the clock, it did stop after Team A's basket, and the head-made basket used up the remaining 4.5 secs so everything was by the rules there. I probably should have mentioned that this was being played under NCAA rules, but I always enjoy hearing the NFHS interps also. Our ruling was what most of you agree to, not a try...2 points. Can't wait to see what happens the rest of the season!

[Edited by NCAAREF on Dec 21st, 2004 at 11:17 AM]