High school varsity game! seeded district game, rivalry, packed house!

Team A has taken 3 charges, team B has taken 3 charges...great defensive game, 1 pt game... coaches are coaching there hearts out to win and neither has said anything to either of us officials..(2 man) Team A's coach is up and where it is so loud, he moves a little closer to the action, a couple feet on the floor and almost to mid court...at that time we had a steal and my partner Ran the coach over that was standing about mid court yelling out defensive plays..... i almost blowed the whistle and called the 7th charge of the night...hahaha.....
my question??? his team is going to the basket for a layup, but should he of been T-boned for being in the way and out of his box for coaching??????
my partner just got up and continued down the court, they made the layup and eventually won with a 3 at the buzzer.. the T would of been deserving, but would of probably changed the complexity of the game and probably changed the outcome..... it was deserving, should it of been called????? or was it right to let it go because of the ramifications?? And it was hilarious!!

Haven't you answered your own question?

Gotta love those rivalry games.

I think you should have called it if the coach broke the rule (BTW, I am not an official).

I've heard a few folks mentioning the phrase "gaining advantage", but I think that phrase is misplaced.

I'll give you personal example to illustrate where I am coming from.

I was playing golf in my club's championship tournament this summer, and one of my tee shots ended up in the rough on a rock.

There was a sprig of grass between the ball and the rock, and when I addressed the ball, the ball moved about a 1/4" from its original position, although it remained on the rock.

I went ahead and hit the shot (about 20 feet back into the fairway).

I gained no advantage from the ball moving, but I broke the rule, because I was to replace the ball under penalty of one stroke.

Since I went ahead and hit the shot, there was a two-stroke penalty for breaching the rule.

No one was around to see what happened, and I had to call the penalty on myself.

I know golf is not basketball, but the principle is the same.

If a rule is broken, then a penalty should be assessed...regardless of the situation, and regardless of the outcome.

It occurs to me that the only protection from criticism an official has the Rule Book. I would think that if one consistently whistled all rules breaches, two things would happen:

1) Teams would learn to not break the rules;
2) No one would be able to question his/her motivation/integrity.

i agree, it should of been called, that was my opinion all along.... Now should i have came over and called it, or since my partner was the one that ran him over should i have left it up to him to decide whether to call it or not??? i chose the ladder, and since he chose to let it go we played on.... i could have came acrossed and got it and helped out, what you guys have wanted to do??? call it yourself, or have your partner come in and get it, because we had a great view of it!!!!

Gotta Pin Him
 

Jritchie,

This is my first year dealing with the coaching box (PA has finally decided to get with the times), but according to the multiple rules interpretation meetings that I have attended so far this year, this has to be a technical foul. I know in PA it has been stressed and stressed that if the coach is either on the court or not in the box, and contact is made w/ an official, whether intentional or not, the T is automatic and it better be called, or an observer is going to rip you a new one. I understand the ramifications that you would have faced, but let me ask the crowd a question. Preventive and common sense officiating aside, isn't our job to enforce the rules, and isn't this a violation of the rules? Anyone disagree with me here?

Let me also say this, if your layup was a fast break, IMO I would have waited for the fast break to end, and then pin him. No one can really moan then--A gets their lay up and B gets the free throws and ball.

Also, just curious...how much time was left?

Two man game--come across and help your partner. He's probably shell shocked anyways for just blindsiding the coach. If you're sure, help him out.

about two minutes was left..... and i left it up to my partner to call or not... since it was him that drilled him!! if it were me i couldn't of hit the whistle fast enough? i had already almost hit him myself but he was just straddling his box and coaching and hadn't said a word to us, so i let it slide... i agree totally we have rules to go by and he should of been got!! i just didn't think it was appropriate for me to come and get it at the time...but now that i have had time to think about it, i probably should have, because my partner was just a little embarassed and didn't need any more attention on himself...

Didn't the opposing fans and coach go through the roof when you didn't T the guy up? Unfortunately you have to call this T because it is so obvious. I understand why you didn't, but in my opinion you probably should have.

Re: Gotta Pin Him
 

I don't see how you could do it this way. As always one side isn't going to like your call. If you're going to T him, do it. Don't wait for them to get the lay up then appease the other side by letting them shoot.
T him up. Let the other side shoot. I'll bet he doesn't get into that situation again. If it comes down to his team losing because of his mistake I don't think you have changed the outcome of the game.

As far as coaching box's go...this region and most in the state...do not really do exactly what should be done...it's not one of the things that most worry about if the coach is not addressing officials..... although it has been discussed at length this year in our state meetings as a point of emphasis....not that it shouldn't be called, it just hasn't been in the past and it has gotten a little out of hand.....

so neither coaches or fans said anything at all because they are used to these coaches coaching all over the place.... they were both very animated and we have a lot more just like them in our region.. we do need to start throwing out some t's for it so they will get the picture, but it doesn't look like it has happened so far this year...i guess no one wants to set the first example!!!

Re: Re: Gotta Pin Him
 

Dudly,

The only reason I would wait is based on this: If you have an injury in the backcourt while a fast break is transitioning, do you blow the play dead immediately or do you wait for the fast break to end? Most officials I know do the latter. If you're going to pin him anyways, then what can it hurt to not wait a half second. Let me also say this though, a lot of that would depend on how close the offensive player is to the bucket; f/e, if he's only at mid-court, I'm pinning the coach.

Todd,
Makes sense.

Dudly

2 point take down
 

The rule is you can't be on the court (out of the coach's box).

You were already letting him be out of the box so essentially you had already decided not to T him for this rule violation. And perhaps it was appropriate. He wasn't harping on you; he was coaching his kids in a very noisy gym.

You can't T him because you collided with him - that's not a rule.

The collision was incidental and surely not intentional. I say you should have busted butt and covered the play for your partner and forgot about a T-bone.

After the collision, regroup; call an official's time if your partner needs it to collect himself. Tell the coach he really needs to stay closer to home and definitely shouldn't be on the court or out in front of the table. Then finish your game.

I doubt either team, fans, or players, or anyone would have wanted a technical foul called. It would probably have been a disruption rather than an improvement to the game. The coach may have been humbled if you had called a T, but he may very well have become angry now and made the rest of the game a hell for you. I think the right thing happened without a T.

Just my quarter's worth.

Re: Re: Re: Gotta Pin Him
 

I'd agree if it was the OTHER team going for the lay up, we should hold our whistle to not penalize the team with the ball, by calling the T on the other team, in this case WHACK, no basket.;)

You forgot number 3 - games would take four hours to play. Oh wait - mine already do!

:)

4 hours? Initially, probably so.

But I would think that once the teams begin to learn the rules (which they should already know), the quality of play would improve.

I like to see good, clean, skilled basketball game-play (hands up, feet moving, minimal contact).

I detest the type of play that is characterized by flailing, slapping, and scrambling...if I wanted to see that I would watch rugby.

Hmm - still not sure if I would T up the coach or not in this situation. Here are my thoughts, though.

1. How far out on the court is the coach? A step or two over the sideline when I'm also running up-court - I'll pass. Or was he at the lane line extended? Did any of the opposing players have to change their route to avoid him? Did they even have to think about changing their route?

2. Is this going to make the game better? The coach is excited - if I tell him to stay in the box, is he going to realize he was out, or is he going to get ticked at me? Has the opposing coach been out of the box and, if so, what warnings/penalties have I imposed on him?

3. If you choose to T the coach, it needs to be immediately. To wait for A to make the layup and then give B two shots penalizes team B, which should have the potential to make a 2 point shift in the game.

4. As to who should call this - obviously this would be best to have a call from your partner, and it's good that you held off on the whistle because he had a no-call. However, I think that you giving a T would be completely appropriate in this case - it's protecting your partner's a**. I think this would be a great pre-game situation to discuss, especially this aspect - far too often one official has his back turned, a partner sees something, but calls nothing (not that that's happened to me or anything :mad: ).

JEBPE...

Think about Advantage/Disadvantage this way.....


A player is on a fast break full length of the court. One defender between him and the basket at mid court. As he passes that defender he gets slapped but is able to continue on his path and make an easy uncontested layup for 2.

Now, if I officiate as you say, by the book, the slap is a foul. I would have to blow it dead at the point it occured, mid court. Let's assume no bonus yet.

So what happens... We have to put the ball in play with a throw in giving the defense time to get setup.

In this example, I have penalized the offense by not letting that player complete an easy layup for 2 points.

I'm sorry, but advantage/disadvantage has to be applied in basketball or it would become a really boring game.

You say the players will learn to adjust... by the book contact is a foul, I can't imagine no matter how hard the players would work to adjust could you have a basketball game with no contact.

That's an automatic in my opinion. In FB I flag any coach with whom I make contact during the play on the field. The court is for players and officials only.

BTW, was he maybe setting a pick?

My $.02 worth
 

You said it was a noisy gym and everyone including the coaches were into it. You did not say if both coaches entered the floor during their coaching.

I would think that if this had been going on for some time, calling a T at the end of the game would have been wrong. If on the other hand, you had buzzed the coach a few times and asked him to stay off the floor, then the T would have been given.

CMc,

I understand what you are saying.

I guess it boils down to the question of what the official's responsibility is.

In your scenario, I believe the foul for the slap would be the right call.

I don't believe the officials are responsible for making the game interesting...that is the players' responsibility, just as it is the players' responsibility to know the rules.

I also don't believe the old saying of "the refs decided the game" holds any water if the game is called in strict accordance with the rules...the players thusly decide the game by breaking the rules and suffering the consequences.

When you introduce subjective judgment calls (e.g., "no advantage was gained, so no foul was required") into the game, you are flirting with situational ethics, and then the above saying DOES hold water.

The only completely FAIR way to do it, IMO, is to call every breach of the rules that you personally see.

This certainly might not be the most exciting way, but it is the fairest way, but I'd rather see my team lose a fairly called game than win an unfairly called game.

CMc,

One danger that I could envision by an official taking it upon himself to keep the game exciting is that of the effect of not making calls early on, and then the play gets REALLY rough (perhaps because nobody has any fouls).

Later on in the game the official might be thinking to himself, "I didn't call that earlier, so I can't really call it now".

Then somebody gets hurt.

This happened at the game I attended last Tuesday; A1 was going after a loose ball, got control, and B1 came running after it and collided HARD with A1 (concussion-hard...A1 was OK, but you get the idea). Foul WAS called, but he (along with the rest of Team B) had several to give.

That was one sloppy basketball game from all parties involved (A,B, and O's).

Whatinthehell does this have to do with advantage/disadvantage? Or with referee'ing?
Or with anything?

Players get hurt, it's part of the game. Regardless of how the game is called or the skill of the officials.

Could you give us an approximation as to how far out on the court is ok for the coach? You mean if you, as an official, run into the coach while you are ON the court, it's ok?? You ignore it? Are you able to officiate the game when trying to avoid coaches who are ON the floor? While YOU are on the floor, knocked over by running into a coach? Are you serious??

Apparently, your safety, the coach's safety, and the players' safety is not an issue here, let alone being able to officiate without physical barriers.

If a coach interferes with my ability to cover the play by making contact with me inbounds, it will be a T (flagrant if deliberate). No if's, and's or but's about this one. I may let him coach from out of the box but he MUST stay out of the way.

The coach was about 4 or 6 feet out on the floor and about a foot away from the mid court line!! both coaches have been out doing it a little, he just came out a little farther this time....

like i said, they were both coaching in a loud gym trying to win a seeded district game in a tight district!! they were not saying a word to us and YES THE COACHES WERE BOTH ASKED TO "TRY" AND STAY "CLOSE" TO THEIR BOXES WHILE COACHING.. But i still didn't think the "T" would of done the game any good...

i did however cover the play for my partner and then after the layup did stop play to make sure everyone was okay...

in my opinion i think how it was handled was best for the game, but is definitely something to talk about in pre'game talks... :)

It seems like this might be something that should have been addressed earlier in the game. I think 4-6 feet out on the court and one foot from half court is a little extreme. It makes me pause while typing this message so I can see how the situation would bring some doubt. However, I'm leaning towards blasting him.
I could be totally off base but the picture I'm painting in my mind is that of a rivalry game with the stands packed that is close. It can be an emotional situation and you may want to refrain from inserting yourself into the game too much. Although it might be hard-core at the time, we can't get caught up in the moment because it is a tough game. Even though things turned out right, it could result in your partner's last game, ever! A serious injury was/is a possibility when running hard and not looking where you are running to. I'm assuming by "seeded district game" you mean it will and can effect the outcome for playoffs. If, at the end of the year, the coach can say that he didn't make the playoffs because he got T'd for being close to the center of the court during a live ball then that coach can only blame himself.

Boring schmoring??....it's not for you to determine the excitement level. Fouls on a breakaway should be called, just because A1 may have been strong enough to continue despite the foul is not the issue. If B1 would have grabbed A1 in an attempt to prevent the score you could even go with "X". You talk about advantage/disadvantage by it sounds like you are misguided on when to apply the doctrine.

There's a big difference between having one foot on the court and being ten feet out on it. Also, sometimes the coach is standing out of bounds, but close to the line, and I might be running up out of bounds - I'm not going to penalize him if we collide.

As to how far - I need to be there to see it.

Re: 2 point take down
 

Intentional or not the coach has no business being on the floor if not at least for the safety issue (as proven in this sitch) of causing collisions with players or officials.

If your state uses a coaches box then you should be reminding the coach to confine himself to that area. It's not a case of being over officious by having these coaches adhere to Rule 10-5. Too often I see a coach being allowed to roam the sideline simply because he is not chirping but coaching even though the box is there. Collisions like the one in the original sitch could be much more serious and lead to injury that should have been avoided.

More equals Less:

More prevention (pre-game reminders) + more enforcement (game time direction) = Less T's and collisions.

As you mentioned in a previous post, basketball is not golf. For one thing, basketball is played on the run and contact is inevitable. The basketball rules recognize this and give officials the authority to make subjective judgments regarding the amount of contact allowed. The officials' responsibilities are to administer the rules according to the spirit of the game as specified in the rule book. If you read the NFHS rule book and officials manual, I think you will understand why the concept of advantage/disadvantage is mentioned so frequently in these forum discussions.

One of the reasons that golf rules are so explicit is that they are enforced by the golfers themselves. Since basketball has trained, professional officials, the various basketball authorities have left them a lot of discretion in the interpretation of the rules. If you concentrate more on the officiating when you watch the next few games than the play, you can begin to appreciate how much the officials' discretion can mean to ensure that games are played fairly.

no T in this situation. I agree with DownTown. Common sense should have a place in this decision. Get up, do your job and remind coach to stay off court. Hey, the coach has treated you with respect the whole game, now return the favor. Be a man and do what is right. Not by rule but by common decency.

Dan-ref,

My comment regarding somebody getting hurt was a supplement to my contention that the official's job is not to keep the game interesting.

It occurs to me that when games are called closely and consistently, that players are less likely to play wildly, and their basketball skills become better for it.

No doubt players will get hurt from time to time, but it would seem to me that part of the official's responsibility is to help prevent injuries (which is directly relevant to the original post...suppose the knocked-down ref fell backward and hit his head on the floor...coach being on the floor is not supposed to be part of the game).


Jimgolf,

I understand where you are coming from. I have only read the NCAA rules (and the differences between NFHS and NCAA), and as I said earlier, I am not an official (although all this discussion is making me lean toward becoming one...gotta couple of daughters at basketball/softball age).

I don't have a problem with discretion or the concept of advantage/disadvantage, per se, particularly with regard to incidental contact.

With regard to the current topic, I would have called a technical foul on the offending coach, and with regard to the slap on the fast break, I would have called the personal.

I just like to see good, skilled basketball.

Some might say that being a man is doing what is right by giving the T regardless of the situation. He already reminded the coach to stay off the court. How many times should he remind him? Also, common decency would be for the coach to realize that the court is for players and officials. There isn't any part of a coaches job during a live ball that is done on the court.

Jeb, in theory you might call the slap but in reality I don't think so. Many of us, myself included, have called a foul on a break or pass only to see that the player would have played through the foul for a layup/dunk or the pass would have got to it's intended target for a wide open shot. Given most circumstances it is better/acceptable in the officiating community to pass on this. If the climate of the game dictates it then you call a foul. It is the way we work basketball. Welcome to the world of basketball officials.

[Edited by tomegun on Dec 17th, 2004 at 11:18 AM]

I understand why you wouldn't want to throw the T, but in my opinion the coach is leaving you little choice. He had been warned about the box and chose to be so far out on the court that it interruped an official from being able to watch play on the court. It's unfortunate that it happened at this point in the game, but the rule is there for a reason. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a tough decision, but I think your hands are tied and you have to call this one. Just my opinion of course.

Junker, excellent point and you did it in a pleasant way.

Thanks, I try to be pleasant at least once a week, no matter what my students seem to think.

Maybe you'll now tell us what the official's job *is*? I've often wondered just what the hell I was supposed to do out there, maybe you can provide some words of wisdom & guidance.

Well, first you say it's not the official's job to make the game interesting, then you go on to say a closely called game leads to a better exhibition of basketball by the players...which is another way of saying it makes the game interesting. (Yeah yeah I know you'll tell me it's not about the game getting better it's about the players improving themselves in their overall experience of growth as a student blah blah blah. Bullsh1t to that I say. Player improvement and growth falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaches. I'm just there to make sure the game is played within the spirit of the rules....ooops, seems I let a clue to the first question slip out there.)

Those who've been at it a while understand the nuance involved in advantage/disadvantage, tightening the game up vs letting them play, the human element of players participating in a sporting contest, etc etc. In fact, that is the challenge. Any dope can read & understand the rule book & apply it in a black & white fashion. It takes a special type of dope to do it in a way that makes the game interesting....errrr....allows the players to apply their basketball skills.

The official's duties include the prevention of injury but only as outlined by the rules. After we've made sure players and the court are both properly equipped it's up to the player's conditioning and plain luck to keep all involved safe.

But let's suppose the official did get injured after running into the coach. Explain to me again how a T after the fact prevents this injury?

Dan_ref, excellent points.

And you did it in an unpleasant way too.

Shove it you crusty old SOB.

And have a Merry Christmas!

http://www.bboxbbs.ch/home/schaendi/jokes/santa.jpg

Your rhetorical question is easily answered but suffice to say that a T in this sitch could prevent future injury by humbling the coach to adhere to his box. When an official lets this degree of free-wandering continue, that coach will continue to push the rules or flatly ignore them which does result in injury and so the habit goes on unchecked. Then, the next game its another official that gets derailed.

Get it early, THAT would help the coach and your brethren officials.

Again bullsh1t I say to that.

Coaches are allowed to get up within the confines of the box/bench.

Sometimes a gym has less than optimal room on the sidelines.

In any event there are times when *I* need to run into the coaches area as a play develops.

If I knock a coach on his @ss as I run by do you think a T will reinforce the idea that he needs to be more careful? Assuming he's that dense do you expect he'll be that much more restrained next time he gets excited during a tight game?

And if I knock him on his @ss while he's legally standing OOB can he T me?

Sigh.

It doesn't seem to matter what I do or say today, or how nice I try to be.

Remind to slap Dr. Norman Vincent Peale upside the head next time I see him. He lied to me.

Oh I'm sorry sweety...please don't be upset. I did give you that lovely Christmas picture! Didn't you like it??

http://www.userniche.com/LoveAndDivo...d%20crying.jpg

OK, Dan, I'll bite...
(but I would mention that the least you could do is consider my entire post...including the reponse to Jimgolf in which I said I don't have a problem with discretion and advantage/disadvantage).

I don't presume to tell you what your job is other than to enforce the rules.

In this case were are talking about a blatant technical foul. Not intentional, not flagrant, but blatant, nonetheless.

If I were officiating, I would call the technical.

I wouldn't like it (as apparently both coaches had been respectful throughout the game), but I would think that I would have to do it.

Don't confuse the original issue with a coach being way out of his prescribed area and the fact that YOU may be the one that enters HIS domain. As an official, you have the responsibility to AVOID the coach or other bench personnel as you run by them -- to the best of your ability.

Glad my situation in this post could cause such good conversation and get everyone in the Christmas Spirit!!! :) Everyone have a great weekend and have some good games!!!

Get in line!!

I'll jump in again too. An earlier post stated that both coaches had been warned about being on the floor. I understand the importance of the timing, but I would call this T. The coach had been warned and now he is so far out on the floor he takes an official out of a play. We are expected to control our emotions when things get heated. This coach was told earlier he needed to get ahold of himself and stay in the coaches box. He chose not to so the T is earned if you ask me. Again, just how I would handle it.

Well, my tiny little brain is obviously no match for your lines of reasoning. First you tell me you're OK with discretion and advantage/disadvantage, in the next breath you tell me my job on the court is to enforce the rules, then you tell me the situation we are discussing is a blatant technical foul. I'll admit I'm not the strongest rules guy out there so I went to my rule books and I gotta admit I could not find "blatant technical foul" in there at all. Got a reference?

Anyways, since you're permitting SOME latitude in how I *enforce* the rules, maybe you'll be kind enough to tell me which rules I need to fully enforce & which rules I can fudge on?

As for what you would do if you were an official, I can live with that. Maybe I would T him too. While we're at it let me tell you what I would do if I were the King of Norway. I would make it illegal to fish for sardines on Sunday. In case you were wondering.

Dan,

It's not your fault you have a tiny little brain; everybody has shortcomings. :)

I must admit you have me at a bit of a disadvantage as you are an official who has access to the NFHS Rule Book AND an Official's Manual (which I assume is a universally accepted supplement to the Rules and is meant to help the official in his or her use of discretion in enforcing the rules).

I have only read the rules on the NCAA website and the table of differences between NFHS and NCAA.

I would further assume that the training you go through further helps you in your use of discretion. This is why I said I don't have problem with using discretion.

As to my use of the word "blatant", that was meant only as an adjective, not a specific type of techincal foul. Perhaps you are more comfortable with the word "obvious".

Again, I don't presume to tell you what your job is. As I said earlier, I assume your duties are defined by the Rule Book and the Official's Manual.

As for your last comment, if "if's" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a......

MERRY CHRISTMAS! :)

[Edited by jebPE on Dec 17th, 2004 at 02:30 PM]

And a Merry Christmas to you too jeb!

<b>Shortcomings?</b> <b>Shortcomings</b>, you say?

It's bad enough that you had to go after poor Dan. But to go after <b>Chuck</b> too?

PS- you <b>did</b> get the brain size right though, if it's any consolation.

oh this banter, isn't it refreshing ..... Now, class did we learn anything??

Oh yea, we learned the use of words like @ss and sh!t. Oh yea, and it was presented in an unpleasant way. Two valuable lessons for making ourselves better officials.
Now, if we could refrain from beating our chests then we could have some real constructive dialogue.

However, upon further review, I am not sure this is possible. Whether it is an instinctual or learned behavior, some humans persist at destructive dialogue. Since I do not have a PhD in psychology, I do not pretend to know why. My satisfaction comes from the knowledge that I am not a member of this school of thought. Constructive and yes pleasant dialogue provides a comfortable self awareness.

Oh by the way, I get emotional watching "heart-warming" movies too.

My, my. You sure are a humorless l'il fella, aren't you? Or is it maybe that you're not used to being disagreed with, being a "teacher"?

I got a refreshing idea that you might want to try. Ignore us. Or go away. Both are acceptable.

Hey scyguy, I think a weepy and upset 12 year old girl (maybe she just broke up with her bf?) might have stolen your password and has taken to posting under your name.

If not then you need to install a sense of humor upgrade, OK kid?

hey, thanks for calling me kid, makes me feel young. My comments have nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing. It is in the manner in which those ideas are expressed. I fail to see the difficulty in this thought.

It is not about humor. Where did that come from?? I am not just addressing you, I am commenting on all the destructive dialogue I always see on this forum. WHY is it necessary? Answer that question. Why is it necessary?

Reflect a moment and try to explain to me why a response has to be destructive instead of constructive.

P.S. joke about the little girl was a bit humorous.

Bull. You've been pouting like a little kid since you got told you were wrong. Now go away and sit in a corner until you grow up. And that's not being "destructive" or "constructive" either. It's being "instructive".

Maybe because down deep we all just hate each other's f'ing guts? I mean in a constructive way of course.

scyguy,

I like to think of it as "reaching a consensus" through civilized debate...no one is in anyone's face, no one is threatening anyone...we are all just sitting at a computer and sharing our thoughts.

I have found that a civilized debate works wonders for one's logical and deductive reasoning skills, which ultimately should make you a better official, as you would be able to better defend yourself if necessary (likewise, should anyone resort to invective, your patience is fortified if you refrain from reciprocating with more invective).

I concede that I am not an official, and do not have the benefit of y'all's training.

Dan, well, he has a tiny little brain, so you shouldn't expect much from him. :)
(no offense intended Dan...I'm just in a giggin' mood today)

Personally, I think that reading and writing on this board will help me become a better spectator...heck, I'm even considering the notion of becoming an official myself.

Now that wasn't very constructive, was it?

I think I'm gonna go sit in the corner and pout for a while.

Move over scguy.

For someone to think this is bad they shouldn't be on here reading. We officiate a sport where in a split second we have to make a decision and here a load of crap about it right or wrong. We have to manage heated situations all the time. I often find myself holding back while typing instead of letting it all hang out. We are educated at what we do which is why we are here. If you can't handle an occassional flare up maybe you should go to another type of forum.

I sat here thinking that you would make an attempt at answering the question.

But let me ask another question, why do you phase your statement as "pouting", when in reality I KNOW you would not say that to my face. Does it empower you to insult me and dodge the concern I have about all of us being more pleasant to one another?

Also, please refresh my memory--I am upset at being wrong? Wrong about what? Wrong to want constructive dialogue? Wrong to want you to be instructive so that I can be a better official?? Or wrong to be "thin-skinned" because you choose to be destructive?

occasional flare up --- now THAT'S funny!!

scyguy,

Seems to me that you are taking the "banter" a bit too seriously.

Are you too sensitive? Maybe.

Is there anything wrong with that? Not necessarily.

Will others exploit your sensitivity? Most definitely.

Is there anything wrong with that? Not necessarily.

Is there anything you can learn from the above? That's up to you.

I would suggest trading a few barbs; try it, you might like it...just don't be malicious, and if you are perceived as being malicious, apologize immediately.

FWIW, I get teary-eyed at "warm-hearted" movies and outstanding musical performances...I also cuss like a sailor (but not at musical performances, ball-games, or in civilized debates...my cussing is generally limited to business dealings [I work in commercial construction]).

Clarification: I don't cuss at high-school games (at least not where anyone can hear me)...Razorbacks games are a different story.

Hey JR, you obviously need to lighten up - some of the newer guys can't take your crusty old sarcasm...altho I must admit that I did get a little teary-eyed myself when you came to Chuck's rescue over the "shortcomings" comment - but that was because my feelings were hurt since you didn't defend me too...move over Dan, I'm headed for that corner with you!!

ok I will try it-- here goes

Jurassic, does the name come from the fact that jur--an--@ss--lick? Wow, that was kinda cool, but was it too malicious? ok let me try again,

I once knew a young boy named Dan
Who had callus on his right hand
His mother wanted to know why
So he told her with a sigh
Because he thought it would make him a man

Sorry, I don't feel any better. Guess this negative stuff is not my bag. You have to give me kudos--I tried!!

As long as you did your best...that's what counts. :)

You do bring up an interesting point, though.

Some people perceive this type of banter as good-natured ribbing...like on the golf course when you're playing partner hits it out-of-bounds and you say "Why'd you hit it over there?" (malicious would be: "You f***ing idiot!"

Oh, well. To each his own.;)

the difference in my eyes is that good natured rubbing is between friends. What I often see on this forum is down right insults toward someone who only wants to better understand the art of officiating.

Uh, yup, I surely would say that to your face. And very sincerely too. And then maybe I'd make you take a time-out in the corner.

I'm not one of the little kids that you teach, Teach. Don't lecture me like one. And don't tell me how to act either. Who cares if <b>you</b> think that we should be more pleasant? Basically, that's none of <b>your</b> damn business.

Is that straight enough for you?

Guess I blew my shot again at being named Mr. Congeniality this year, eh? Bad JR! Bad, bad JR!

Btw, whatinthehell are the M's doing? Sexson? Then Beltre? They trying to buy a pennant? That's just not right, you know. :D

am I lecturing when I simply ask why there is a need for such destructive dialogue??

gotta go JR, have a 7-8th grade tourn tonight and doubt I will be back any time soon. You see, as a teacher, I have until Jan 3rd before I have to go back to work. Tough life I know, but someone has to do it.

Final thought, I am proud of who I am primarily because I am sensitive and understanding of others. Besides being happily married for 24 years, being faithful, and a terrific father for two teenage children, I am also very proud to be a nice guy. You should try it, you might like it!

Gee, that's errr....funny... :shrug:

Here's one:

There once was a guy named scyguy
Who was a mind-numbingly boring socially backward tediously annoying little priss.

Waddaya think?

JR, I have 1 word for you:

bigunit.

Merry Christmas!!

You got a lot in common with that Muqtada Al-Sadr guy.

C'mon over Rocky, no problem squeezing you in!

Hee hee hee...taking a page from Georgie's book, aren't we?? Can't say I mind it tho...hey maybe that's scyguy's problem! I bet he's a Royals fan!!!

Wait...you think...geeze...I always wondered what happened to Morganna!!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart...50morganna.jpg

Aw, that brought a tear to my eye, scyguy. Seriously.

Tell ya what? I'm a sensitive guy too. The next time that I get the urge to go out in my backyard, start a campfire up, and then get a buncha people to come over so we can all sit around in a circle and hold hands and sing Kumbaya---you'll be the first one that I call. I promise.

You wait for the call now.

Have a good Holiday, scyguy.

...hey maybe that's scyguy's problem! I bet he's a Royals fan!!! [/B][/QUOTE]Nah, he thinks that baseball is <b>crude</b>. :D

Unfortunately, this thread has deteriorated into a string of childish personal attacks. Maybe we can do better with another thread.

Some things never change.. Give JR a T for me.
 

I've been reading this thread and just thought it was time
to post my opinion.

I officiate lots of basketball year round and I own
an "assigning" business in San Diego.

I constantly refer my "veterans" and new recruits to this forum with hopes that they will learn the finer points of officiating and will get some insightful viewpoints and
appropriate rules interpretations.

But somehow many of the threads get too personal
and many are turned sideways by JR.

Why doesn't somebody T him whether he stays in his box or not!

I had an awful first impression of him when I signed up
and even though I've been away from this site for a few months, it seems that nothing has changed!

Woo Hoo, Morgana the Kissing Bandit. It brings back memories. Memories when I had hair on my head.

I have to agree with Mark Dexter and Camron Rust's earliest posts. The Head Coach is supposed to be sitting on the bench or standing in his coaching box. If he is on the court he already is committing an infraction of the rules and if I run into him because he is on the court, well guess what? WHACK!!

I also have to add that my opinion comes with a bias. In 34 years of officiating I have charged two coaches with technical fouls because I ran into them while they were on the court. The first one was the head coach of a women's college team and the second one was the head coach of a girls' H.S. varsity team. In the latter case, the technical foul elimnated a turnover by his opponents that would have given his team the ball with approximately 4 seconds left in the game and a chance to tie the game and send it into overtime.

MTD, Sr.

Re: Some things never change.. Give JR a T for me.
 

Barry, you had an awful first impression of me because you came on here trying to show everybody how smart you were, and it got shown pretty damn quick how little you really did know. You don't post here any more because you don't know the rules very well, and that get's pointed out to you very quickly. You also got very ticked off at me when I pointed out to you that, on the rules that you made up on your web site for your rec league officials, two of them were completely wrong. You had to re-write your website to correct them, didn't you? Do you want me to do that again? There's still 2 more there that you got wrong. I'll leave it to you to guess which ones- unless you bug me again. I also pointed out to you that the only time that you seemed to post here was when you thought you could slip in some free advertising for your rec leagues. As for getting personal, how about the steroid-monkey that referees for you that posted here and physically threatened me? Remember MuscleRef, Barry? Or did you forget about that one too?

If you wanna plead ignorance to the above, Barry, I'll go dig those threads out. Easy to do with Google. Your choice.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 18th, 2004 at 06:40 AM]

High school varsity game! seeded district game, rivalry,
packed house!

I thought of something that commentators often mention at a "packed house!", The sixth man is on the court!

As rules against fans prevent them from obscenities etc. in order to help ref's with game managment, it doesn't prevent them from becoming loud; extremely loud; or wave disconcerting objects (like balloons) behind the backboard during a free throw. It's part of the game!

Sounds like the coach was outmatched and hasn't learned to value hand signals over yelling instructions. But of course if we don't apply the rule well he doesn't have to learn anything except; we refs make exceptions to the rule "because of the ramifications??"

Lovely to have opportunity to share after thoughts and make a few gallow observations; thanks for the example I'll remember this one.

I thought good-natured rubbing is why Dan has callouses? :confused:

LOL! Or maybe the rubbing gave Dan his good nature?

coach takes a charge
 

how can you say that you would hold your whistle until the lay up is finished and then blow it. You used the example of an injury in the backcourt on a fast break, since when does an injury constitute a breach of the rules such as the serious one the coach just committed. come on, use your head. Dead ball at the point of the contact, not 10 seconds later.

Re: coach takes a charge
 

Hotlink, there is a casebook play on each type of situation (one case that discusses an injury, and one that discusses a technical foul). In the case of a T on the defensive coach, the interpretation is that you wait to call the T b/c you don't want to take the advantage away from the driving offense. So. . .

A1 attacking the basket.

Coach B makes inappropriate comment.

Official allows A1 to complete his play (completing a play means releasing a try or withholding the ball from play).

Official assesses technical foul to Coach B.

The thing to remember, tho, is that this case only applies in a situation where the defensive coach commits the unsporting act. If a member of the offensive team commits any type of foul, the ball becomes dead immediately unless the try is already in flight.

But this is not one of those cases. I know what the book says, but this is not the defensive coach, it is the offensive coach, and you are penalizing the defense by not blowing the whistle automatically, thereby allowing the offense to score before penalizing the contact. Different situation than just holding the whistle for a stupid play by the defensive coach, or holding it on a drive to the basket for a possible 3 point play.

Lotion keeps me callous free.

Anyways, here's an old joke:

Chuck Sr: "Junior! Cut that out! Don't you know it will make you blind!!?"

Chuck Jr: "OK Dad...can I at least do it until I need glasses?"

Ok, sorry. I guess I misread the original sitch. If it was the offensive coach that popped off, then you are absolutely correct. Whack him immediately. Take away the break and give 2 shots and the ball to the other team. Big swing!