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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 16, 2004, 01:45pm
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After a made basket by A, B has a throw in anywhere along the endline. If A commits a foul or a violation (where the ball would be put in play on the endline), B retains the right to run the endline. My question is this. Is knocking the ball out of bounds considered a violation for this scenario?
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Old Thu Dec 16, 2004, 02:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by todd66
After a made basket by A, B has a throw in anywhere along the endline. If A commits a foul or a violation (where the ball would be put in play on the endline), B retains the right to run the endline. My question is this. Is knocking the ball out of bounds considered a violation for this scenario?
Is this the scenario you have in mind: A makes a basket, B has a throw-in along the endline, B throws the ball into the court where A quickly knocks the ball out of bounds?

If so, then B gets the ball at the designated spot, with no right to run the endline.
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Old Thu Dec 16, 2004, 02:26pm
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We just had this thread and here's what I posted:

This determination seems simple to me. If the throw-in ends with an act that in itself is a violation (kicking or punching the ball, for example), they retain the right to run the baseline. If the throw-in ends with an act that, in itself, is NOT a violation (deflecting the ball, for example), then there is a spot throw-in if the deflection causes the ball to go OOB, since the deflection itself is not a violation - the ball going OOB is - and this happens after the throw-in ends.

I hope that answers your question.
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Old Thu Dec 16, 2004, 03:44pm
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Thanks for the help. i thought that was the way it was. Just needed to hear it from someone else.
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 05:35am
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Todd,
You need to remember that the retaining the endline rule applies if the COMMON foul or violation occurs DURING THE THROW-IN.
Padgett has given you the correct way to handle it.
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 08:13am
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One last point to be added to Mark Padgett's post and that is that Team B retains the privilege to run the endline after Team A's violation or common foul (and Team B is not in the bonus) if the throw-in spot for the violation or common foul is to be the end line. If the spot of the throw-in for the violation is along the side line then that is where the throw-in will take place.

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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 04:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Todd,
You need to remember that the retaining the endline rule applies if the COMMON foul or violation occurs DURING THE THROW-IN.
Padgett has given you the correct way to handle it.
Nevadaref,

That is the way I understand it too, but the rulebook doesn't say that. Rule 7-5-7 states that "a team retains this privilege (endline run) if the scoring team committs a violation or common file and the ensuing throw-in spot would have been on the end line.

Note that it says nothing about that privilege ending once the throw-in ends.

I've heard some say that the endline privileges end when the throw-in ends, but Case Book Play 7.5.7B disproves that. It shows that team B still has the end line run privileges even after A1 kicks the ball. As we all know, the throw-in ends when the passed ball touches or is touched by an inbounds player other than the thrower. So in this case, the throw-in has ended (with the kick) yet A1 retains endline run priveleges.

So it sounds as if the FED is saying that the endline privileges end when the throw-in ends or if the throw-in ends with a violation by the defense.

Even the "Major Editorial Changes" this year don't totally clear it up. It says, "Clarified that a team will retain end-line run privileges after a violation or common foul." Note that it says nothing there about when those privileges end either.

Many in our state are being very liberal and letting the throwing team retain endline run privileges even if the foul or violation by the defense occurs after the throw-in ends, provided the ensuing throw-in is once again on the endline. They'll continue to do so until someone can show them a rule or case play that completely clears it up.

Z



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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 04:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Many in our state are being very liberal and letting the throwing team retain endline run privileges even if the foul or violation by the defense occurs after the throw-in ends, provided the ensuing throw-in is once again on the endline. They'll continue to do so until someone can show them a rule or case play that completely clears it up.

Z
Maybe that is the case, but where in the rulebook does it say they can retain the privilege that the officials are allowing? There were numerous case plays in many of their literature when this rule came out that basically suggested that the only time you could retain on a violation was when a kicked ball took place or maybe a held ball during the throw-in. I would have to do some research and dig out my old NF/NASO Guidebooks, but I am almost sure there was a play that showed a throw-in that was tapped out of bounds on A in this situation and they did not allow the continuation of "running the baseline."

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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 04:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman


So it sounds as if the FED is saying that the endline privileges end when the throw-in ends or if the throw-in ends with a violation by the defense.


That's how I read it. The violation and the end of the throw-in are simultaneous. NCAA clears this up by saying the throw-in ends when it is legally touched on the court.

Quote:

Many in our state are being very liberal and letting the throwing team retain endline run privileges even if the foul or violation by the defense occurs after the throw-in ends, provided the ensuing throw-in is once again on the endline. They'll continue to do so until someone can show them a rule or case play that completely clears it up.
I don't agree with their interpretation, but they are right that it's somewhat ambiguous and there should be a definitive ruling - as long as the entire crew is consistent throughout a game, I'd be okay with them interpreting it this way.
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 05:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge

[/B]
I would have to do some research and dig out my old NF/NASO Guidebooks, but I am almost sure there was a play that showed a throw-in that was tapped out of bounds on A in this situation and they did not allow the continuation of "running the baseline."

[/B][/QUOTE]Jeff, casebook play 7.5.7SitB(c) is exactly the same as what you wrote above. As soon as an A player legally touched the throw-in in-bounds, the throw-in ended. If the ball then goes OOB after A touched it, then that is a separate play and a violation that occurred after the end of the throw-in. That's why the subsequent throw-in is always a spot throw-in. That's the logic used in the case book play
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 05:20pm
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Thanks JR. I knew I read that somewhere. I just thought it was in only in those guidebooks our state gives us every year.

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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 08:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
I would have to do some research and dig out my old NF/NASO Guidebooks, but I am almost sure there was a play that showed a throw-in that was tapped out of bounds on A in this situation and they did not allow the continuation of "running the baseline."

[/B]
Jeff, casebook play 7.5.7SitB(c) is exactly the same as what you wrote above. As soon as an A player legally touched the throw-in in-bounds, the throw-in ended. If the ball then goes OOB after A touched it, then that is a separate play and a violation that occurred after the end of the throw-in. That's why the subsequent throw-in is always a spot throw-in. That's the logic used in the case book play [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed, but as I already stated, there is another case play where the throw-in ends when the defensive player kicks the ball. In that case, end-line privileges are retained. The FED needs to clarify the wording in the rule by saying something about the privileges ending when the throw-in ends without it being ended by a defensive violation.

Z
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 20, 2004, 05:49am
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Here's what you need

From the 2001-2002 NFHS Rules Book (the year the retaining the end line rule change came in):

On the first couple of pages where the Rules Changes are always listed:
"7-5-7 Permits a team to run the end line on a throw-in when the scoring team, immediately following a made basket or during the ensuing throw-in, commits either a violation or foul."

Also, on page 72 in the Comments on the 2001-02 Rules Revisions:
"Throw-in provision after a score (7-5-7): To prohibit the team that just scored from gaining an advantage, this change permits a team to run the end line on a throw-in when either a foul or violation is committed by the scoring team immediately following a made basket or on the ensuing throw-in. This change only applies when the spot for the throw-in would be at the end line."

Z, This shows that those guys in your state that are allowing the running after a catch and foul are wrong, but it's not crystal clear on the immediate kick. I have always interpreted the first-touch is a kick play to be during the throw-in since it occurs right at the end of it, plus that is also the NCAA rule.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 20th, 2004 at 05:54 AM]
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Old Mon Dec 20, 2004, 11:33am
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Thanks Nevadaref,

Maybe I convince them now. We'll see.

Z
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Old Mon Dec 20, 2004, 11:48am
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So, you are saying that if A1 fouls B1 after he catches the inbounds pass and the bonus is not in effect, then the ball would be put in play with a spot throw-in because the throw-in ended when B1 touched the ball before the foul?
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