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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:36pm
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heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by umpire29
heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.
I do not know of any violation that covers this act.

I suppose you could call a technical foul for bench decorum, if it was sever enough. However, the only person disadvantaged is the A player. I wouldn't call anything, and talk to the coach when (s)he returns from half-time, and ask that they remain in the bench area until the half has officially ended.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by umpire29
heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.
If I understand this correctly, it was the shooter's teammates that were walking up and down the out-of-bounds sideline right?

You wouldn't call disconcertion on a player's teammate.

If it was team B, it would be very unlikely that I would call disconcertion unless I was certain that they were intentionally trying to distract the shooter.

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Z
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:44pm
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yes zebraman it was the shooters team who walked down the side as she was shooting.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by umpire29
heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.
umpire29,
I'm not calling anything, even if they inadvertently step onto the court.
There is no intent. There is no advantage.
Color me blind.
mick
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 09:40pm
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The team's action doesn't really seem like a big deal. However, it is a POE this year that players on the court must stay on the court, and bench personnel must stay on the bench. Leaving the bench area -- to go into the hall for a drink, or to go into the stands to sit with friends, or (I would guess) leaving for the locker while the ball is still in play -- is not acceptable.

I'm not sure that I have a call here, but I probably would have a brief conversation with the coach when we come out for the second half.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 09:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by umpire29
heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.
Well, the first thing that I'd say is that you're shooting at the wrong basket if team A is shooting at their own end of the court in front of their bench in the second quarter. They should be shooting at the other end- and should have done so the whole first half. What are they doing there?

Secondly, there is no violation for walking OOB down the sideline while a FT is being taken in front of your bench by your own bench members. You can't have any player in this situation in-bounds though, if they're below the free throw line extended or inside the 3-point arc- as perR8-1-5. Is that what you were thinking of?
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 09:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
The team's action doesn't really seem like a big deal. However, it is a POE this year that players on the court must stay on the court, and bench personnel must stay on the bench. Leaving the bench area -- to go into the hall for a drink, or to go into the stands to sit with friends, or (I would guess) leaving for the locker while the ball is still in play -- is not acceptable.

I'm not sure that I have a call here, but I probably would have a brief conversation with the coach when we come out for the second half.
Chuck,
That's just a "touch foul", and you don't call those.

I see no justification, with regard to spirit and intent, based on that POE and the given sitch. There is no penalty because the onus seems to be on the coaches with regard to the committee's "concern".
If the opposing coach says something, then fine, I'll have to mention it.
mick
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 09:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
The team's action doesn't really seem like a big deal. However, it is a POE this year that players on the court must stay on the court, and bench personnel must stay on the bench. Leaving the bench area -- to go into the hall for a drink, or to go into the stands to sit with friends, or (I would guess) leaving for the locker while the ball is still in play -- is not acceptable.

I'm not sure that I have a call here, but I probably would have a brief conversation with the coach when we come out for the second half.
As explained to me, the concern that led to the POE is players going off on their own, without supervision...sometimes even up into the stands to talk to friends. It wasn't intended to penalize a team for walking off the floor with their coach at the end of a half (yes, I realize that the half isn't over until the free throws are taken, but let's not go looking for trouble).

Z
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 10:30pm
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, the first thing that I'd say is that you're shooting at the wrong basket if team A is shooting at their own end of the court in front of their bench in the second quarter.
He didn't say this was the case. He just said they were walking down the OOB line where the shooter was shooting. It's entirely possible they could have left their bench and were walking past the other team's bench.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 11:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
There is no penalty because the onus seems to be on the coaches
That's why I think I probably don't have a call, but do have a conversation with the coach. He's supposed to keep his team on the bench. That's his responsibility and we're supposed to make sure that happens, aren't we? That's why it's a POE.
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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 12:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
There is no penalty because the onus seems to be on the coaches
That's why I think I probably don't have a call, but do have a conversation with the coach. He's supposed to keep his team on the bench. That's his responsibility and we're supposed to make sure that happens, aren't we? That's why it's a POE.
No, you're missing the intention of the POE. The POE is to keep kids from going to the fountain or up in the stands unsupervised. Apparently in some places, that has led to fights (maybe they were fans of Ron Artest) and other mischief after they've left the area where their coach has them under his/her control. If they are walking towards their locker room under the supervision of the coaches, no problem.

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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
No, you're missing the intention of the POE. The POE is to keep kids from going to the fountain or up in the stands unsupervised.
I understand that. But it seems to me that the result of that intention is that players must stay in the bench area, which they didn't do in this sitch.

Not to mention the fact, that the coach is not allowed to leave the coaching box -- or even stand up in some states --during play.

If you're concerned about fights starting, then you also should consider that the team may be walking through the other team's bench area to get to the basket where their teammate is shooting.

Just seems to me to be worth a quick word with the coach after halftime. If you disagree, I can live with that.
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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 09:43am
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Aren't bench personnel supposed to remain seated during the game? The quarter hasn't ended until the last free throw. You have kids leaving the court while you still have jurisdiction. What about the coach's box? Isn't that still in effect? In any event, I have nothing.
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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by umpire29
heres the senerio at the end of 2nd quarter a three point shooter team A get fouled no time left on clock. I have players go to there benches. they make the first free throw while attempting the 2nd one team A's players and coaches get up walk down the out of bounds side line the shooter is shooting at. is this a violation or not? and where might i find this in a rule book.

I think that everybody is missing the point of this play. And that is the second quarter does not end until after A1's three free throws are shot. That means the other nine players in the game are still in the game and must be on the court per the rules for free throws found in NFHS R9.

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