4-19 Question

[Nevadaref]

I had a buddy come to me with this play:
(Team A is on offense, Team B is the defense)
The Trail calls an off-ball foul on A2 outside the 3 point line near the 28 ft mark. At the same time, the Lead calls a foul against B1 for contacting A1 during a try for goal, which was unsuccessful.


My thoughts depended upon whether the two fouls really were simultaneous or not.

I gave him these options:

1. The fouls really were simultaneous. Report both fouls. No free throws are awarded, and the AP arrow is used for possession. Throw-in spot is nearest the foul of the team not getting the ball. Too bad about the shooting foul, his teammate, A2, shouldn't have fouled. (The Case Book play 4.19.9 doesn't say anything about either foul being against a shooter.)

2. The foul against the shooter happened a split second before the off-ball foul. Call it a false double foul. Report both fouls, clear the lane and shoot two, then award the ball OOB on the sideline (nearest spot to A2's foul) to Team B. (Administration is as in 4.19.8 Sit A, except that the ball is inbounded on the sideline.)

3. The off-ball foul by A2 occurred first. The other foul is ignored as it was not intentional or flagrant, even though 4-19-1 Note is poorly worded and makes it seem like this foul should be penalized. Award Team B the ball OOB on the sideline.

Anyone out there ever had a simultaneous foul? How about one that included a foul against a shooter? What do you guys think of my options?

PS The officials on the game picked option 4. Report both fouls, line everybody up and shoot two, then continue as normal.

[ref18]

A simultaneous (double) foul can only cocur when two opponents foul eachother at approximately the same time.

There are never shots with a double foul, always go with the arrow.

In the situation you described, I'd pick whichever one happened first, or try to determine whichever one happened first, and report both and administer the penalties in the order they occured.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ref18
A simultaneous (double) foul can only cocur when two opponents foul eachother at approximately the same time.

Go read 4-19-9 and then post again.

[ref18]

You're probably right, I really don't have the book with me when I posted the last one, or this one or this one. When I get home I'll give it a read through.

[Edited by ref18 on Dec 8th, 2004 at 09:21 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ref18
Might be true, I really don't have the book with me right now at school when I posted the last one, or this one. When I get home I'll give it a read through.

Oh, well since you are hard at work at school, here you go:

4-19-9 "A simultaneous foul (personal or technical) by opponents is a situation in which there is a foul by both teams which occurs at approximately the same time, but are not committed by opponents against each other."

What are your thoughts now?

[ref18]

Well it's a good thing I read this before I see one on the court

20 to go

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
4-19-9 "A simultaneous foul (personal or technical) by opponents is a situation in which there is a foul by both teams which occurs at approximately the same time, but are not committed by opponents against each other."

What are your thoughts now?

My 4-19-9 does not say "(personal or technical)." It only says technical and therefore I don't believe it is applicable to this situation.

One of the fouls occurred first and therefore created a dead ball. Now go to 4-19-1 and its note. B1 fouls A1 during shot therefore (per the note, this cannot be ignored and) the appropriate free throws must be awarded based upon the outcome of A1's try (successful - one shot; unsuccessful - two shots). Your case, two shots.

If the officials decide B1's foul of A1 was first then I think A2's foul is ignored. If they feel A2's foul occurred first then both are reported (false multiple, 4-19-11?)... and if Team B is in the bonus, I guess Team B would shoot for A2's foul (with the lane cleared) and then A1 would shoot his two shots for B1's foul - with a live ball to follow.

Everyone will be confused by now so let anyone else that wants to shoot have a couple shots also. Take one for yourself! Your points go to the losing team. Then go to the arrow to resume play.

Obviously, it would be less confusing if the officials can decide the shooting foul committed by B1 was first and that A2's foul can be ignored.

Heaven help the poor soul that finds themself in this situation.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
If they feel A2's foul occurred first then both are reported (false multiple, 4-19-11?)...

I thought multiple fouls were committed by teammates.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
My 4-19-9 does not say "(personal or technical)." It only says technical and therefore I don't believe it is applicable to this situation.

Then you need a new rules book. This was changed last year or this.

Obviously, it would be less confusing if the officials can decide the shooting foul committed by B1 was first and that A2's foul can be ignored.

Heaven help the poor soul that finds themself in this situation.

You've got this backwards. The foul on the shooter doesn't cause the ball to become dead until the try ends. So, we can't (by rule) ignore the foul by A2.

If the foul by A2 was first (and A1 hadn't released the ball on the try), then the ball is dead immediately, and we ignore B1's foul (unless intentional or flagrant)