I worked a junior high girls' game last night.

Blue team has ball OOB for throw-in under their basket. Blue player inbounds the ball in the key. Red player intercepts the pass, and shoots at the blue team's basket. The shot doesn't go in, and the red player rebounds her missed shot, and then starts to go up for another attempt. My partner blows his whistle for dead ball, and starts to give the ball back to the blue team for another OOB throw-in. The red team's coach starts yelling, and says we should have left well alone and not blown the whistle. He says his team should have the ball OOB as his player had possession when the whistle was blown.

I figure we blew the call, but what is the correct call here? And if we didn't blow the whistle and the red player had scored in the blue team's basket, then what? I have read this a few times, but my muddled brain can't remember.

GregAlan

Legalistically speaking, partner shouldn't have blown and should have begun a 10-second count. There's no reason to stop play until the 10-second count is up, or until the ball goes in the basket. If she makes the shot, the score counts for blue, and red gets the ball oob.

Once your partner blew there were no good choices. Giving the ball back to blue doesn't seem right. But then neither is giving it to red. I think you have to go with the arrow, and hope everyone forgets about the whole thing.

You start a 10 second back court count. If they dribble, "shoot" and catch the ball, without it touching another player, or "shoot" catch and dribble you have a double dribble. If they make the shot, you blow your whistle, count the basket for the other team and give the ball to the team that made the basket at the wrong goal, with the endline to run.

And remember, if the "shooter" is fouled,it is not a 2 shot foul. No bonus, their ball OOB. If bonus is in effect, GO TO THEIR BASKET and shoot the FT(s).

Thanks, I forgot this aspect.

Actually, I forgot another one. If they "shoot" catch it off the backboard and "shoot" again, that's also a double dribble.

I should have also pointed out that their "shot" needs to strike the backboard.

From the original sitch it sounds like the red player still had the ball when the partner blew it dead. If that is the case, then it is definitely red's ball OOB. They were in possesion when the "inadvertent" whistle occurred. If the ball were in the air for a "shot," it is still red's ball as team possession ends on a try. Shooting at the wrong basket is not a try.

If the "shot" doesn't hit the backboard, and the "shooter" gets the rebound, is that considered passing to herself or double dribble?

If it does not hit anything and they catch it in the air it's a walk. If it hit's the floor they began a dribble, so it would depend on if they dribbled prior to the "shot". There is nothing in the rule book that I could find that mentions if their "shot" only hits the rim, part of me wants to include the rim with the backboard, but there is no rule support.

"Passing to herself", but that;s not a violation unless the pivot foot moved.

Also, if the "Shot" was a jump shot and A1 gets the "rebound" after the ball hit the backboard, that's travelling for lifting the pivot foot before starting the dribble.

if whistle was inadvertent don't we always go to the arrow--not a rule i like but isn't that the rule on an inadvertent whistle?

No. Only when there's no team control (or disposal). 7.5.4

Not as simple as you thought :)!

Wow, I'd love to see that call!! Jump shot, ball hits backboard. . .TWEET!! Travel. That would be a fun one to watch.

You'd want to watch it from the stands. This person's partner is gonna have no fun at all cleaning up afterward!

Actually it is an illegal dribble if the player's pivot foot moved. See 4.15.4 sit E. A player cannot travel without holding the ball.

I'm not sure I understand the logic here
 

BZ,

Are you saying that a player who attempts a shot at their opponents goal is not entitled to catch the ball if it was short of the goal? I know that once a shot attempt is made there is no team or player control. So the shooter could catch the ball as long as it was an attempt in the officials judgement. Are you saying this does not apply to a player shooting at the wrong goal?

Also throwing a ball against the opponents backboard is considered the start of a dribble. The player could catch the ball and still shoot. Could she not? There would be no violation. If the shot hit the backboard are you considering this the start of another dribble, thus an illegal dribble?

Thanks!
Randall

I am going to call you out on that one Nev. I am sure you can think of a couple of ways to travel without holding the ball. I will give you another chance before I post a couple.

Re: I'm not sure I understand the logic here
 

Correct, Randall. The opponents backboard is considered part of the floor for this purpose. If a player shoots towards the wrong hoop, they are not entitled to a "rebound". It is treated as a dribble/pass rather than a shot.
Therefore, if the player has already ended a dribble, and gets their own "rebound" off the wrong basket, it's a double dribble. If they take a jump shot and get their own rebound, it's a travel. If they haven't started a dribble, and get the rebound with both hands, it's legal, but they no longer can dribble.

Re: I'm not sure I understand the logic here
 

there's no such thing as a "shot (try) at their opponent goal."

That should make the rest of the post / rule easier to understand.

Questions for Clarification
 

These statements/questions assume the player is shooting at the wrong basket. Correct me where I'm wrong. If you can, provide the rule and/or case play.

1. If the player has not ended her dribble, then throwing the ball against the backboard does not constitute an illegal dribble. I back this up with Case 4.15.4 which clearly states that the dribble came to an end. I'm assuming this would not be a violation if the opposite where true, that the player did not start and then end a dribble. In this situation the player could only throw the ball against the backboard once. Also she could not dribble after catching the ball, but the initial throw is not a violation.

2. Does the ball have to hit only the backboard to be considered the start of a dribble? What if it hits only the rim or the backboard and then the rim or the rim and then the backboard? Sorry I'm being too anal here, but I'm wondering if it makes a difference.

3. If the player had ended her dribble and throws toward the wrong goal, when do you call the violation? If it hits the backboard do you kill it then and call an illegal dribble? What if it hits the rim? Or do you wait until she catches it?

4. Could A travel only be called if she attempted a shot and missed everything and them moved her feet in getting the ball? There could be no travel if she did not move both feet, correct? A pass to oneself, if it doesn't hit the ground, is considered a travel or illegal dribble?


Thanks!
Randall

Re: Questions for Clarification
 

If the player has not dribbled, throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard and touching the ball constitutes a legal dribble. If the "touching" is also "catching" then the player cannot dribble again.

Quote:

2. Does the ball have to hit only the backboard to be considered the start of a dribble? What if it hits only the rim or the backboard and then the rim or the rim and then the backboard? Sorry I'm being too anal here, but I'm wondering if it makes a difference.

The rim is not covered in the rules. Treat the resulting play as if the ball had not hit the rim.

Quote:

3. If the player had ended her dribble and throws toward the wrong goal, when do you call the violation? If it hits the backboard do you kill it then and call an illegal dribble? What if it hits the rim? Or do you wait until she catches it?

It's not an immediate violation to end the dribble, then throw the ball off the floor, is it? It's only a violation to then touch the ball. Same with the backboard. (IOW, it doesn't become a dribble until the ball is retouched)

Quote:

4. Could A travel only be called if she attempted a shot and missed everything and them moved her feet in getting the ball? There could be no travel if she did not move both feet, correct? A pass to oneself, if it doesn't hit the ground, is considered a travel or illegal dribble?

It's not necessary to move "both feet". We only care about the pivot foot.

Re: Re: Questions for Clarification
 

Right, I was assuming a situation in which a pivot foot had not been established. But I can't think of a situation that that would apply at this time. So, never mind. But would a pass to oneself be considered a travel or an illegal dribble? Is this similar to throwing the ball over a defenders head and catching it before it hits the ground? That is an illegal dribble, correct?

Re: Re: Re: Questions for Clarification
 

No one other than overly-anal referees cares. Blow the whistle and give the other team the ball.

That ruling based on 9-5 makes no sense. 9-5 talks about dribbling a SECOND time, the 2001-2 case book has it under 9-4 which makes A LOT more sense.

In that case play and catching this missed "shot" airball, you have not yet dribbled, it will BECOME a dribble when it hits the floor or backboard, so how can you dribble a second time when you have yet to dribble a first?

So they either need to add self pass, yet to strike the floor under 9-5, or put it where it more closely fits, under 9-4 and lifting your pivot foot prior to dribbling.

It's not a violation of 9-5 because it's not a "second dribble"

It's not a violation of 9-4 because the player wasn't holding the ball (a requirement to travel under 4-43)

Ergo, a "self pass" is a legal play (assuming the player hasn't dribbled, and "passes" the ball before lifting the pivot foot). ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for Clarification
 

Exactly, same as when a dribbler carries the ball. Do you have travelling? An illegal second dribble? Something else? Who cares? Give the "palming" signal and get the game going. The coaches and players understand that signal. If you call "travelling" because the dribbler moved his pivot foot while carrying the ball, then it's almost guaranteed that someone is gonna be asking for an explanation.

KISS!

Neither I nor that case book play ever said that this was a double dribble, which is really what 9-5 is when you read it.
It is simply that the movement of the ball does not constitute a legal dribble as in 4-15. The ball must hit the floor for it to be a dribble. Touching the ball twice before it hits the floor, as in this case, is an illegal dribble.

Another example of an illegal dribble is when a player is trying to split a double team. The dribble approaches the double team while dribbling with his right hand. The ball rebounds from the floor to his right hand. The player then shifts/passes the ball from his right hand to his left. The ball never touches both hands at the same time. The ball also does not touch the floor in between touching the players hands. The player now pushes the ball to the floor with his left hand as he splits the double team. This is an illegal dribble. There should have been a crossover dribble in there, but the player left it out in order to gain time. An old coach of mine taught me this move. He also knew that it was illegal, but stated that it was hardly ever called so it was well worth using against a trapping press.

Sam,
There is only ONE exception to what I said and that is a goofball play in the Case Book 4.43.5 Sit B. "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."
I happen to disagree with that interpretation by the Fed and have written about it on this forum. It should not be a travel.
So, I will stand by my statement. If the player is not holding the ball, he/she cannot travel.
But please, enlighten me with your examples. Perhaps you will discover that some of your examples are not travels. Surprise me. :)

You mentioned one, another one I thought of is: Player A with the ball tosses it up in the air, judged to not be a shot, just above his/her head, takes a step (moves both feet) and catches the ball without the ball touching the floor.

On the side, you can't travel without having had position of the ball first, which is what I think you meant.

Those two scenarios are kind of similiar. In both you are in a position where moving your feet/butt requires a dribble, pass, or shot. And neither of the three occurr.

You can call Case Book 4.43.5 Sit B. a goof ball play, but I have seen it several times, especially in the junior high/middle school aged kids.

[Edited by SamIAm on Dec 9th, 2004 at 10:40 AM]

This is the same play that spurred my original comment to which you objected. Again, this play is NOT a travel. It is an illegal dribble. Case Book play 4.15.4 Situation E part(b) specifically says so.


Nope. I truly meant that a player cannot travel without HOLDING the ball AT THE TIME of the foot movement. Except for that one sentence in case book play 4.43.5 Situation B, which I believe is a poor interpretation by the NFHS.

4-43 "Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball."

You are correct. There are not a couple of ways to travel without the ball, only one. I also agree that does not seem logical to term the one exception as a travel. It seems just as illogical to me to call the scenario I descibed as an illegal dribble. If you do the same thing and don't move your feet it is legal, you move your feet, it is illegal, but not a travel.

Thanks for being so cordial in your response. I hope you added to your officiating knowledge. Hopefully, my posts never came across as being nasty either. I merely wished to set you and any others who read this thread straight on the rule.
Additionally, while I see your point about the foot movement, there is a good reason that the rule must be this way. Consider a player who throws the ball a few feet away, but allows it to BOUNCE on the floor, before running over to it, and is the first to touch/catch it. This would be a legal play. This is because this action meets the definition of a dribble (4-15). So all you have is a player taking a dribble, and since traveling is not possible during a dribble (4-15-4 Note 1), it doesn't matter how far the player moved from the original location. (Of course, this assumes that the player hadn't dribbled before because then this would be a double dribble violation.)

In fact, this play was included in the interpretations last year and is still posted on the nfhs website:
SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

Hope all of this helped to clarify things for you.