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Last night, in an 8th grade girls game A1 was dribbling in the corner. In an attempt to go around B1, A1 loses control of the ball, steps out-of-bounds, returns inbounds(foot touched the floor before hand touched the ball) and resumes her dribble. No foul on B1, contact was minimal. No other player touched the ball during the interupted dribble. My partner called a violation, saying that A1, after stepping out of bounds could not be the first player to touch the ball, even after re-establishing her position in-bounds. Was this the right call? I can't defend it in the rule book. Help will be appreciated!!
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Don't have my rule book with me but if I recall, and I usually don't, a player with control of the ball can not go out of bounds to avoid the defense and then be the first to gain control when returning in-bounds. A player, not in control of the ball, could go out of bounds to save the ball and be the first gain control when returning in-bounds. I think your partner made the right call on this particular play.
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Your partner was incorrect.
A player can return from OOB and be the first to touch the ball provided he is not touching anywhere OOB. That is, as long as he is touching inbounds and is not touching OOB, he is legal. A player may not jump from OOB and touch the ball in the air - that is considered OOB. However, there is no requirement to "establish" two feet as some officials think - merely one foot or another part of your body will suffice. Also, during a dribble, a player may not step OOB even while the ball is not touching their hands. This is considered OOB. Since this was an interupted dribble, thus, no player control, this does not apply. |
Like I said earlier, i do not have my books with me but I do happen to have a copy of Part II of the NFHS 2000-01 Basketball Rules Examination. Question 67 address this issue. Question 67 is as follows: "A1 may be out of bounds without penalty if A1, while dribbling, goes out of bounds to avoid B1 and then comes back inbounds to continue the dribble." I did not note the rule reference, but I did note that I answered this correctly and the correct answer is False.
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Someone please post the rule reference to either validate my opinion or prove I'm a dumbass. :) |
I remember somewhere in my ref ed. class hearing that you may 'fumble-dribble-fumble', but you may not, 'dribble-fumble-dribble', this would be a violation. So to go OOB after dribbling then re-enter the boundary to re-establish your dribble would be a violation. I agree with your partner "Violation"
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A few years ago it was also a violation if it was an interrupted dribble (as in this case). The NFHS recognized the error and removed the case play (4.15.5) from the book. You can find this in the '97-98 rule book, revised interpretations, play 31 (page 9). |
Case book 7.1.1B
<html><b>Play:</b> Al blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds, but A1, who is off balance, steps off the court. A1 returns inbounds, secures control of the ball and dribbles. <b>Ruling:</b> Legal.<br><br>Hope this helps!</html>
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The key is if A1 loses control of the ball or not. If control is really lost (e.g., ball bounces off of foot) then it is legal. If the player simply goes OOB and returns to be the first to touch the ball, then OOB. It doesn't matter how many times the ball bounces, the issue is if the player is in control or not.
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Bob and Brad are correct. You can't call this a violation guys, no matter how much you don't like it. You know, it hasn't been but a week or two ago that we discussed this play. The topic was, "Where is it in the book?" and the link is http://www.officialforum.com/thread/1537
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4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp. Quote:
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9-3 Note A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. NOTE: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds. SUMMARY As long as he doesn't have control of it when he steps OOB, the play is legal. The fact that he had player control prior to going OOB has absolutely nothing to do with it. We're making this so much harder than it is. Unless he is dribbling when he touches the line, or steps on the line while holding or touching the ball, the ball is not OOB. The ball is not OOB if there is an interrupted dribble and the player goes OOB. You can't decide that it's not an interrupted dribble because you don't like the way the play looked. Whether the ball accidentally gets away from him or he lets it get away, it's still an interrupted dribble. Whether he went OOB voluntarily or involuntarily has nothing to do with it. The only issue to consider with regards to this is whether he intentionally went OOB to deceive or gain an advantage. Isn't this fun? :D |
Excellent Reply
Excellent job of explaining this situation Basketball Ref!
Thank you! |
Great explanation of dribble interruptus. Thanks
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Are you guys saying that a player who is dribbling the ball, then steps OOB while the ball bounces twice, then steps back in bounds had lost control of the ball? How do you define "ball gets away from him"?
The original post states "loses control of the ball" and that makes it easy - no violation. The tough call is when there is nothing apparent to indicate loss of control (except the ball bounced twice). What about the player who sees the defenser coming and pushes the ball ahead on purpose, goes OOB to get around the defense, and then once inbounds continues the dribble? Did he lose control by purposely pushing it ahead and letting it bounce 2 or 3 times? Seems this is one of those situations that each person pictures in their mind differently. Show a video and it is easier to argue. (BTW, "e.g." means for example, not the only explanation.) |
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Now, in the play that you described above, there is no OOB violation. You can't make it into one, no matter how badly you may want to. It doesn't matter if he intentionally lost control or not. It's simply not a violation. However, you could have a technical foul on this play if you feel the dribbler intentionally went OOB to gain an advantage. Player control, in my opinion would end if the ball bounced up and returned to the floor without the dribbler touching it. Even if he only misses one dribble, it's an interrupted dribble. It may be the world's shortest ID, but I don't believe you can say that the ball must bounce 2 or 3 or 4 times before it's an ID. |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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understand & agree with what you're saying. But, since we're getting into the dirty details, would you also say it's an interrupted dribble or loss of player control when the unguarded point lets the ball dribble a few time while he's screaming out plays? |
BktBallRef, by rule you are correct. Richard makes a good point. If i'm asked to make a judgement on border line loss of control, i think i will error on the side of this being a violation. On the play described, the judgement by one official was different then the other. The post didn't say if the other official saw this as an interupted dribble.
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Rule 4.15.1 says that a dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. I don't know that I agree that a dribble has been interuppted just because it has bounced off of the floor more than once. Dan_Ref makes a good point. Official's discretion must be used to determine if a player has retained control of the ball or if the dribble has been interuppted.
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By rule, yes, it would be an interrupted dribble. Why does create a difficult picture for folks to accept? An interrupted dribble doesn't have to be involuntary, but it's still an ID. There's no control while the ball is just bouncing on the floor. B1 is closely guarding A1. Do you continue a closely guarded count during an interrupted dribble? Would you continue the count in the play you describe above, if, for some reason, A1 just allowed the ball to bounce and B1 allowed him to do so by not making a play for the ball? Quote:
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Think about this: A1 is dribbling in his BC and slaps the ball hard to the floor as he goes around B1. The ball goes to B1's left and A1 goes to B1's right but steps OOB. He doesn't opick up his dribble again until the ball is in his lane. Are you going to whistle A1 OOB? This is very simple guys. Unless he's actually dribbling the ball when he steps on the line, there's no violation. Fight it all you want to but it's the wrong call to make. :( |
Dan's point guard case
R4-15-1
A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)), pushes or bats the ball to the floor once or several times. R4-15-5 An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble. Perhaps there are case book examples that indicate otherwise, but nothing in the dribbling rules say that everytime the ball comes up from the floor it must be pushed back to the floor. If a player allows a ball to bounce in front of them after commencing a dribble, as in Dan's example, I would not consider that case to fall under the category of "momentarily gets away." That statement implies a loss of control, and the following statement seems to confirm it. The ball has never left the control of the point guard and the point can touch it at any point. If the ball gets away from a player, that player would have to move to get the ball and there is clearly a loss of player control. I can't see Dan's case as an interrupted dribble unless there is a specific case that states it is. Also, I would have trouble with allowing a player in the lane for three seconds, then have the point allow the ball to bounce free for a couple of seconds, then start the three second count again. Doesn't seem to be the intent of this rule. |
Re: Dan's point guard case
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With regards to Dan's question, I'm not really concerned about this play. It's pretty irrelevant whether it's an ID or not. In the play that was originally posted, we have folks who are saying that we don't have an interrupted dribble. That's much more troubling. |
No violation. As long as the dribbler does not touch the ball while out of bounds or touch any object out of bounds, then she may return to the floor and continue to dribble the ball.
As for the fumble-dribble-fumble suggestion, she never lost control of the ball such as in an air dribble. As long as she maintained (regained) control of the ball it is not a fumble. Too often we answer a thread with a rule which does not apply. In my experience, stick to one rule and do not bring in other 'what ifs.' |
Re: Re: Dan's point guard case
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was thinking specifically of 3 seconds when I brought this up. If it is an ID then we suspend the 3 second count, obviously, and we also suspend the 5 second count. I don't see this play happening in a closely held case, unless the point guard wants to spend lots of time on the bench. If this play constitutes an ID then a *really* clever coach could have his 6'8" guy camp forever while his PG dribbles every *other* bounce on the perimeter, which does not make sense to me. I believe there is a case book play somewhere that says the ball can take multiple bounces between dribbles but I just got back from a game & I'm too lazy to look it up right now. When I find it I'll post it. Good discussion! -Dan |
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